PC Graphics

[colesdav]

RDNA2, RDNA Refresh, and "Big Navi" Launch and Reviews.

It looks like it will not be long before real information will start to get released about RDNA2 and "Big Navi". 

I am opening this thread to capture information about RDNA2, RDNA Refresh, and Big Navi Launch and Reviews.

I will only include information such as:

Benchmarks or Reviews of XBOX Series X and PS5 which include "RDNA2" GPU.

Information released by AMD on RDNA2 and Big Navi.

Information about any "RDNA Refresh" of the RX5000 series GPUs.

Benchmark data from AMD and YouTube Benchmarks and Reviews.

I will be watching out for the information and reading reviews anyhow so I will post data here if I see it.

If anyone has useful data such as described above then can you please add information here?

Please avoid wild speculations from "Tech YouTubers" who seem to make outrageous performance improvement claims based on "rumours" from "reliable leakers".

They often seem to yoyo their conclusions on a weekly basis just to get better viewing numbers or deny their predictions were complete rubbish when they get it wrong, and huff about it.

[colesdav]

Here is a video showing overclocking an RX6800 GPU. 

Power Slider on both RX6800/XT just goes up by 15% maximum. 
Means they are very close to Power Limit. 
RX Vega 64 Liquid and RX5700XT allow + 50% power target.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1Akjpgd7W4&feature=emb_logo

[colesdav]

RX69000XT Series launching todat. 

According to this: 
https://www.newsweek.com/radeon-6900-xt-release-time-best-tips-order-one-1552610
Theyt launch at 9:00 a.m. EST. 

Some rumours that AIB 6900XT will turn up. 
https://www.pcmag.com/news/amds-radeon-rx-6900-xt-expected-to-be-extremely-limited-on-launch-day

https://wccftech.com/amd-radeon-rx-6900-xt-flagship-big-navi-graphics-cards-listed-launches-tomorrow...

[colesdav · Accepted solution]

I am closing this thread. 
Lots of work done posting reviews about AMD RX6800/XT series. 
No one seems interested or seems to care, even on this Forum. 

As far as I see it, AMD finally managed to almost catch up to Nvidia in 4K Rasterization perfomance, but is still behind in many other areas w.r.t. Blender, GPU Compute, AI, DLSS. GeForce Experience features, Driver stability. 

I think this is/was a paper launch, done to satisfy AMD Shareholders & Financial Markets. 

Use of SAM and Rage Mode on presentation for RX6900XT was done to give the impression the RX6900XT beats/equals the RTX3090. 

There is no point in looking at reviews as the GPUs are not actually available to purchase. 

Maybe AMD AIB partners will have some RX6800/XT or even 6900XT availabe mid 2021. 

Maybe AMD will be working on RDNA3 but I doubt they will actually release RDNA3 GPU until next round of Consoles are needed. 

I think Nvidia will re-launch RTX3000 series GPU on better process node in 2021. 

Looks to me like AMD have missed the boat with the launch of these cards, due to overpricing them and almost total lack of stock. 

[colesdav]

RX6900XT Paper Launch summary from various reviewers. 
Don't bother: 

Gamers Nexus - Don't bother buying the RX6900XT: 
https://youtu.be/1ITdex_JrBM?t=1939

JayzTwoCents Review:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PtTUnj4od4

Meh.

Few things. 

He says the drivers are bad and he is only seeing 250 Watt GPU Power reported. 
Maybe he is expecting Total Board Power reported like Nvidia do and not just GPU Power?

Thinks the BIOS and drivers are bad. 

Claims SAM is limited to Ryzen 5000 CPU because AMD are greedy. He claims SAM could be activated on Ryzen 3000 series CPUs on PCIe capable motherboard. 
I think he might be wrong on that one and there may be hardware improvement on Ryzen 5000 series CPU that is actually the reason.  

Pretty scathing about the RX6900XT.

Even Hardware Unboxed do not think the RX6900XT is worth it and they have been quite "pro AMD" in my opinion. 
https://youtu.be/nxQ0-QtAtxA?t=930

Linus. 
Not impressed: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9ALYCuqtho

[ajlueke]

"There is no point in looking at reviews as the GPUs are not actually available to purchase. "

I think that is the biggest issue.  Yeah, I don't think the RTX 3090 and RX 6900 XT make sense compared to the the RTX 3080, RX 6800 XT for the price, but at this point I think people would pay just to get a GPU at MSRP.  I mean, if the choice is a 6900 XT at MSRP or a 6800 XT at 6800 XT for $1,200 the choice becomes pretty clear.

Also, another interesting rumor floating around.

https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-radeon-rx-6900-xt-rx-6800-xt-and-rx-6800-reference-desings-are-being...

[colesdav]

I had heard the rumours about MBA reference design discontinued but will wait to see what AMD announce about it. 

AMD likely prefer to produce a Radeon Pro version with the ~ same MBA board design but stick it in a 2 slot reference blower, adjust the FP64 performance (usually a option they can set) , paint it blue and double the MSRP.

Likely much more profit in it. 
They will leave gaming GPU to AIB partners. 

[ajlueke]

Is AMD going to use RDNA for the Pro line?  Or will they use the Vega offshoot CDNA like they are using in the Instinct line?

[colesdav]

Not sure. 

They did produce Radeon Pro Navi 10 GPUs. 
I thought the CDNA cards were for AI/Deep Learning but maybe they will also have Radeon Pro versions of those. 

https://www.techpowerup.com/274719/amd-announces-cdna-architecture-radeon-mi100-is-the-worlds-fastes...

[ajlueke]

For high precision rendering (FP64 and INT64) CDNA would still be superior to RDNA.  So I wouldn't be surprised if we see the Pro line also sporting CDNA GPUs.   

[colesdav]

Another reviewer tells AMD that the RX6900XT is a no.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LuIGI_9guQ&feature=emb_logo

[pokester]

It is a very odd product at its price point. It isn't enough faster and the hit and miss performance is very erratic. It is obvious that the rasterization performance is definitely bottlenecked by CPU performance at times. There really isn't enough performance to justify the price difference. Yet anyone buying one is likely not worried about price as much as bragging rights. It will be interesting to see if some driver updates end up fixing a lot of the frame dipping that many of the reviewers experienced. 

It really makes me wonder where and how does the next generation of GPUs get around the bottleneck issues? I just don't see cpus getting enough faster in a generation to keep up with how fast GPU performance is advancing.

It really does seem to me the SOC Arm chip approach similar to what Apple is doing and Nvidia is planning really will be the replacement tech for x86 sooner than we think. All I can say is Nvidia sure must think so, or they wouldn't be buying ARM. 

Makes me wonder if AMD is in early development on an alternative to x86 themselves? I know several tech sites have commented that they better be. 

[ajlueke]

"I just don't see cpus getting enough faster in a generation to keep up with how fast GPU performance is advancing."

Are CPUs really the problem at a hardware level?  Or is it the software developers?  There are plenty of CPUs out there now with 10/12/16 cores.  How many games actually make use of all the hardware that is currently available to them?

[pokester]

I don't disagree with you. The evolution of game engines that utilize more cores vs ever increasing single core speed would make a bigger impact. The core count argument vs gaming argument is even the same as it was when 2 then 4 and so on came on the scene. It's just the could be, should be vs reality argument. In a perfect world it would do this, yet the perfect world scenarios rarely exist. My only point is that at some point in at least the not too distant future the way we are doing things is just running out of improvement room. I think we are closer to the whole computer world massively changing. It sure seems like Apple, Google, Microsoft and Nvidia are very much preparing for that to happen. Who knows what all will happen. I am just saying it isn't going to at this point be more of basically the same cpus just faster. We are on the edge of some monumental changes. 

Regardless of how the the overall change happens in the next few years to a decade. I just think they will have a hard time with cpus keeping up gpus and your point is likely the very best short term answer. They will have to actually use all those cores. Hopefully with so much development coming from the new console generation that will naturally happen. 

[colesdav]

Throwing more CPU cores at a problem will only help up to a certain point for a given software program or application. 
Some computations cannot be run in parallel. Those limit overall execution speed on any multi CPU system. 

There has been lots of research looking at how to combine multiple CPU cores to work as one large core on sequential computations as well as just increasing single core speed.  It is a very complex problem to solve.

RE: We are on the edge of some monumental changes.
Yes, we are. You are correct.

AI assisted Computer Architecture, Fabrication Technology, and Electronic Circuit CAD techniques have been in development for years and are now in implementation phase in many areas already.

Rate of change of improvements will likely increase rapidly from mid 2021.
Just hope AI doesn't decide humans slow things down too much.

[colesdav]

In interest of impartiality: 

This reviewer thinks the $999 RX6900XT is a great GPU. For Gaming. 
As long as you leave productivity, Blender, and compute out of the review - because like - practically no one uses those.
Apperently those applications never had any support for AMD GPUs anyhow because AMD had "nothing to compete" before RX6900XT launched. 

Mmmm.
"RX Vega 64 Liquid & other AMD GPU OpenCL performance improvements to Blender 2.78"  never happened.
ROCm does not exist. 
Etc etc. 
I call them out for their nonsense. 
AMD are miles behind Nvidia in many of those areas though. 

As for the $999 MSRP? More like $1500 to get one from Ebay. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWRZDlp5xQ4&feature=youtu.be&t=615

[ajlueke]

"It really makes me wonder where and how does the next generation of GPUs get around the bottleneck issues? "

You could actually ask the same question of CPUs.  When you look at the CyberPunk 2077 performance numbers, a game that hammers both CPU and GPU, the application is GPU bound at any resolution above 1080p.  What's more, the application scales great up to 8 cores, but there is minimal benefit from 12 and virtually none above that.  So there is a lot of performance still being left on the table, not so much on the GPU side.  

"replacement tech for x86 sooner than we think. All I can say is Nvidia sure must think so, or they wouldn't be buying ARM. "

Not necessarily.  The paradigm shift we will likely see is the move away from monolithic GPUs as they are getting to expensive to produce.  Both AMD and NVidia are moving to modular designs next go around with a smaller base unit linked together on infinity fabric or something similar.  The idea then would be to also lay in CPU cores for a ubiquitous scalable platform, that gives customers as much or as little processing as they need.  Intel, by adding in a GPU division will also likely go that route.  NVidia, without a CPU, would be left out in the cold.  That is likely why they are buying ARM.  There isn't really an x86 company they can buy.  So I think the purchase is more due to necessity than NVidia's particular "belief" in ARM over x86. 

[pokester]

They don't need a true x86 to do emulation. Have you seen where apples x86 emulation is already working with nearly no performance loss and aside from some early graphical hiccups is working perfectly? Even more impressive are their graphics scores. Really interesting stuff. 

That tech very neatly solves many of the bottleneck issues in the near future on both CPU and GPU fronts. Microsoft is very heavily investing into their ARM version of Windows and I can absolutely see that avenue as being easier to move forward on that x86 native at this point. I also think that native apps for ARM will also translate into what comes next after current ARM tech much more easily as it won't be so tied to a specific instruction set. 

Anyway it is all guessing. It will be fun to see what actually happens. I just hope I am alive to see what ends up replacing the status quo.  

Speaking of Cyberpunk 2077, did you see where it is utilizing hyper-threading on Intel but not AMD? Interesting oversight, one you have to question is it on purpose. A user already figured out how to change the .exe to enable it on AMD. I would assume it will get fixed pretty quickly in a patch at this point. He had said it took his CPU utilization on his Ryzen from about 50 to 75. I can't remember the exact numbers but it was a lot. 

[ajlueke]

Yup.  But the fix actually made performance worse on many of the high core count CPUs like the 5950X.  

[LeyvinBeta]

---

@colesdav wrote:

No one seems interested or seems to care, even on this Forum. 

---

It's not a lack of interest... it's a lack of relatability / importance for the AMD Core Audience.
If we literally are unable to purchase due to a lack of Supply., or frankly Affordability... then why care?

At this point most of us will simply be unable to get our hands on said Hardware until next year., likely March-April (best case). 
Of course we can say that "Well, there was much more interest before these Cards were released...", of course; but then in said situation, we're speculating about something UNKNOWN. That actually feeds into Human Nature.

It's a bit like the assumption that we'd freak out (as a people) if ETs were announced to be Real Tomorrow.
I'd argue that what makes them so enigmatic and something we're drawn to now... is we DON'T know if they exist., but if they were to land tomorrow and say "Hi" by the New Year; no one would really care about the subject anymore. 

•

---

@colesdav wrote:

I think this is/was a paper launch, done to satisfy AMD Shareholders & Financial Markets. 

---

I don't think it was... from what I can tell., AMD actually had greater supply than they normally would for a Launch.
The main problem here is that there is an unusually higher-than-normal Demand, akin to the RX 500-Series with the Crypto-Currency Rush. 

Couple that with NVIDIA's Lower-than-Normal Launch Supply... claims of similar Performance... and well this has led to a very similar situation to Q2 2016. 
And I'm not sure if it will improve either., something doesn't seem right about the current notion of Scalpers.

Scalpers for something like Tickets... well it makes sense because it's a "Limited Time" thing.
But does anyone else thing it's weird how., normally speaking Supply for Products is "On-Going" (every 10 Days., Retailers will receive more Units); yet in the case of the CPU/GPU situation., they've had Launch Supply, and that's it. 

With "More Promised in the Future"... on top of this., we're not talking about a small purchase figure.
We're talking about product that are £500 - £1500., and you're telling me that Scalpers have the financial backing to simply buy out such large quantities (as we're seeing being flipped on NewEgg, eBay and Amazon)? 

But given almost all of this is occurring via On-Line Purchases., that they also have the Infrastructure to en-mass buy such quantities; with enough "Unique" Details as to not Trigger the 1 Purchase Per Person limitation? They just happened to have THAT many "Ready to Go" Accounts to make such big purchases?

Now we have AIB Partner Models (from both., although the AMD ones are much more overt) showcasing abnormally higher MSRP., despite that being where the bulk of the GPUs are going.

That's A LOT of coincidences in AMD and NVIDIA Favour., especially given NVIDIA had an awful 2019 in terms of Sales Figures while AMD didn't exactly hit their projections., certainly not in the GPU Space. 

Now both (right before their 2020 FY Report) are doing record sales? With Hyper-Expensive Products, that Ordinarily would be beyond the Price Range of their Core Audience in a Normal Year; but somehow are so popular as to be unobtainable during a Pandemic with most of their Core Audience spending their time in Hiatus at a much lower income. 

I'm sorry, but those are A LOT of beneficial coincidences., that oddly work in the favour of Companies who by all rights should've been hit quite hard by the Pandemic due to where it originated and where their products are Produced. 

As it stands I'm seriously suspicious of what's going on., and unless I end up getting sent (for work purposes) one of this Gen Cards., I won't have one; because I have ZERO intention of supporting EITHER Company until they stop taking the **** and regain my trust. 

These might be great products., but all of what's happened here has just showcased that as it stands... neither company has the ethics, savvy or interests of their Consumers in-mind. Heck, I'd argue that this generation has just reinforced that they simply DO NOT care about their Core Consumer Market; so, why should we care about them?

[pokester]

---

@colesdav wrote:

PowerColor Red Devil Reviews: 

https://hexus.net/tech/reviews/graphics/147022-powercolor-radeon-rx-6800-xt-red-devil-limited-editio...

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/powercolor-radeon-rx-6800-xt-red-devil/

---

Looks like a nice card but you have to ask is this anywhere near worth the extra 150 to 200 bucks for an extra 2-8 fps premium. Just not enough return on the extra money on GPUs that are overpriced at msrp to begin with. 

[colesdav]

I am not sure what prices are on any of the RX6800XT/6800 in Europe.

Prices are very high where I have seen them for sale. 

Newegg in US had pricing last night in USD but they were much higher than MSRP for the reference cards.

Interesting to see that the PowerColor Red Devil Limited edition still does not beat RTX3080 at 4K.  

[colesdav]

Newegg pricing for RX6800XT: 

https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=RX6800XT

ASUS ROG Liquid Cooled version is $899.

[swps]

I couldn't agree more!  It seems very few reviews want to point out that DLSS is not a true native rendering but rendering at a lower resolution and upscaling with AI help.  It looks fine but if you compare it to a true image, it never looks as good

[ajlueke]

Both NVidia and AMD will be going to modular based designs next gen vs monolithic GPUs, similar to the CCX design of Ryzen.  So we could potentially have not only gains in performance, but also lower costs, as higher end GPUs will just be more modules linked together.

[colesdav]

I do not think full watercooled systems are worth the effort.
I prefer AIO coolers for CPU - easy to replace. 
AIO on GPU can be a pain but at least allow 2 slot form factor and still ~ portable.
PC cases should allow GPU hoses to exit the case and AIO cooler to mount on exterior of PC case. 

[coppermave]

uh huh