General Discussions

[kingfish]

MD unveiled its new Radeon RX 5700 line of graphics cards with 7nm chips at E3 last month, and with just days to go before they launch on July 7th, the company has announced new pricing. In the "spirit" of competition that it says is "heating up" in the graphics market -- specifically NVIDIA's "Super" new RTX cards -- all three versions of the graphics card will be cheaper than we thought.

The standard Radeon RX 5700 with 36 compute units and speeds of up to 1.7GHz was originally announced at $379, but will instead hit shelves at $349 -- the same price as NVIDIA's RTX 2060. The 5700 XT card that brings 40 compute units and up to 1.9GHz speed will be $50 cheaper than expected, launching at $399. The same goes for the 50th Anniversary with a slightly higher boost speed and stylish gold trim that will cost $449 instead of $499.

That's enough to keep them both cheaper than the $499 RTX 2070 Super -- we'll have to wait for the performance reviews to find out if it's enough to make sure they're still relevant.

AMD fires back at 'Super' NVIDIA with Radeon RX 5700 price cuts 

[hardcoregames_]

ajlueke wrote:

NVidia lost about half their value after the disastrous Turing reveal, and are only now regaining that lost value.  Regardless, in the past calendar year, NVidia has gained 64% in share value.   AMD meanwhile, even with the current dip is sitting at an almost 96% share increase in the same time period.  So as an investor, AMD's performance outstripped NVidia by a significant margin.  And this in a year when NVidia was only selling what was regarded as heavily overpriced GPUs.  But I guess, if your primary competitor just prices GPUs identically, there isn't much to worry about.  

Hopefully Intel will eventually do something to inject some actual competition back into this market, but who knows when that will be.

One of the reasons for the higher prices of Pascal and Turing was due to digital coin miners. Radeon cards were also widely used.

My RX 480 8GB is an ex mining card, now repurposed for gaming.

[colesdav]

ASUS to provide a fix for RX5700 and 5700XT GPUs:

After overheating concerns, Asus is helping RX 5700 owners tighten their screws | PC Gamer 

Fix should be available from March 2020.

At least this is an improvement on the RX Vega 64 Strix thermal pads situation since it is acknowledged and a fix is provided.

But.

Non EVO versions are still on sale in various places with no mention of the problem.
So if you don't know about it you could still buy a non EVO version and might end up with an RX5700/XT GPU with bad thermals etc etc.

I still think they should have done a product recall on those cards and should stop retailers selling them.

[black_zion]

nVidia's stock just hit an all time high of $314 a share today, even though they missed earnings estimates on gaming by $100 million, on Ampere and 7nm expectations, lack of AMD competition, Nintendo Switch success, and decreasing RTX prices.

Also, AMD is forecasted to take a higher than expected impact from the coronavirus due to their positioning at the lower end, whereas Intel and nVidia are positioned higher and more protected.

AMD still does care about graphics, right?

https://www.wccftech.com/nvidia-stock-blows-past-312-in-massive-stock-surge-to-reach-new-all-time-high/

https://www.msn.com/en-us/finance/news/why-amds-coronavirus-impact-could-be-worse-than-intel-nvidia/ar-BB10alN0

[pokester]

That is great news as I don't ever want to lose the competition that AMD brings with them. Now that things are brighter, hopefully they can pay their vendors what they owe (saw a couple articles and some stock analysts a couple weeks ago saying they feel AMD is overvalued) and maybe bolster their software development team and get some great drivers like they had in the past. Still great news for AMD and glad to hear it. 

[pokester]

Ouch sorry I just realized you said Nvidia. AMD's prices had risen quite a bit lately too. Regardless I am happy if all the companies do well. There are far to few competitors as it is. I don't want the market to ever lose any of them as it is not good for consumers. 

[hardcoregames_]

pokester wrote:

Ouch sorry I just realized you said Nvidia. AMD's prices had risen quite a bit lately too. Regardless I am happy if all the companies do well. There are far to few competitors as it is. I don't want the market to ever lose any of them as it is not good for consumers. 

sadly digital coins have moved up lately so any desire for a more modern card will have to be delayed

[black_zion]

I just want AMD to be a viable competitor again...But I just don't see it happening anytime soon. I haven't seen any GPU roadmap after 2020, which we know "next gen 7nm+" to be RDNA2 "Big Navi", the fastest of which may only be as powerful as nVidia's midrange Ampere cards, and may be as slow as their entry level cards.

We know Navi wasn't intended for any high end cards, there was supposed to be a successor to Vega which never materialized from the leapfrogging design teams strategy, and if AMD keeps flailing away for the next two years with RNDA2 they're going to end up without any measurable discrete market share.

This of course is compounded by the driver issues, lack of transparency, and pricing from AMD, and the questionable design choices from the AIBs.

Sad it before and I'll say it again, it astounds me that the same CEO which leads the team behind Zen architecture* is the same CEO which leads Radeon Technologies Group.

*This asterisk of course relates to the fact that the lead designer behind Zen 1, Keller, left after it was finished and is headlining Intel's GPU efforts, and it is unknown how AMD will fare in the future after Zen is refined as much as possible and requires a new architecture again, or how much the "totally new ground up" design of Zen 4 is actually from new designers.

[colesdav]

RE: I just want AMD to be a viable competitor again...

I would like to be o.k. to buy RX5700XT cards and fit them to new PC builds but I can not and will not do it.

I think the following is needed.

1. Drop the Navi prices to ~ 250 where they should have been in the first place. Get realistic about the entire product situation. That will likely have to happen when Next gen Nvidia GPUs launch on 7nm, if they are good. That is not too far away. May as well try to get as much new user base for AMD GPUs as possible while they still can do that.

2. Help sort out AIB partner cards situation. It looks like a mess. I have watched lots of review videos. My confidence level on many vendors cards is ~zero. Having to VBIOS flash a new GPU is a ridiculous prospect for many users, especially if a GPU has only one BIOS setting. Get AIBs to pull broken designs from sale and offer replacements with fixes. Having to debug and RMA a new GPU is costly in time and money and stressful. One bad experience = walk away for at least the next 2 generations of cards.

3. Go back to Adrenalin 2019 GUI. It is a better more mature GUI/UI. It should not take much effort to add in Boost, and separate FRTC is still there.
Put Adrenalin 2020 GUI into Alpha/Beta testing or optional install where it should be.
Right now Adrenalin 2020 is an additional headache and distraction. It is a total mess.

4. Focus on fixing driver issues for existing  Navi/RadeonVII/Vega users. Need to rergain confidence in existing user base.
    I think existing Radeon VII/Vega Users might even still give AMD GPUs like Big Navi a chance but things need to improve fast.

5. Get a GUI for Ubuntu Linux at least and start doing something serious to help many Windows 7 users who are looking at Ubuntu Linux instead of Windows 10. Right now Nvidia GUI is a very easy install in Ubuntu. It is good and easy to use.

RE: there was supposed to be a successor to Vega which never materialized from the leapfrogging design teams strategy

Wasn't Radeon VII the successor to Vega? Retapeout on 7nm and 2x HBM2 memory banks? I didn't think they would go for it because it was pretty clear to me it wouldn't beat an RTX2080 based on AMD information about moving to 7nm. 

Or are you talking about this: AMD Arcturus Next-Generation 7nm+ GPU Revealed 

What do you think about the following in the Asus Article?
After overheating concerns, Asus is helping RX 5700 owners tighten their screws | PC Gamer 

"As Asus explained, it produced initial runs of the ROG Strix Radeon RX 5700 and RX 5700 XT graphics cards according to AMD's guidelines. Normally, AMD recommends a PSI (pound-force per square inch) between pressure and temperature of 30-40."

I would have thought those Guidelines must be in an AMD Specification for RX5700/XT somewhere and all AIB card manufacturers would get the same specification and advice.

[black_zion]

And on the subject of Big Navi/RDNA2 rumors, the Korean RRA certifications hint that perhaps AMD will release multiple RDNA2 based cards soon, though it's not unexpected, there is an RDNA2 refresh coming this year and "Big Navi" has been rumored to launch in March to counteract Ampere's announcement for some time. Still, little reason to get excited.

https://www.eteknix.com/multiple-amd-listings-hint-at-imminent-big-navi-gpu-release/

[hardcoregames_]

Miners are already buying up 5700 XT cards galore, NewEgg has sold a lot of them

[black_zion]

Provide proof of that statement.

[hardcoregames_]

[hardcoregames_]

checking NewEgg, sold out of 5700 XT cards in Canada

[black_zion]

And that does not show proof miners are buying RX 5700 XT cards.

[hardcoregames_]

black_zion wrote:

And that does not show proof miners are buying RX 5700 XT cards.

obviously you are not well studied in economics like I am

[Anonymous]

Mega miners are spawning but no standard consumer GPU making any difference.

[hardcoregames_]

john007 wrote:

Mega miners are spawning but no standard consumer GPU making any difference.

I saw a report from some alternative digital coins (there are vast numbers of them now) that are still able to make to with the 5700 XT.

The largest miners are using custom logic which has been more profitable v a video card but the cap ex is higher

custom units are several thousands of dollars vs $500 for a 5700 XT

[pokester]

I would sure think that with the design change with RDNA that the Navi cards are really not as good of compute cards as Vega was. I would think a Vega would be a better choice for mining?

[black_zion]

The lists I have seen on some of the questionable mining news sites, as well as more reputable sites such as TechRadar, for the best mining cards are the Radeon VII, Radeon RX 580, and GTX 1000 series. Haven't seen anything which recommends Navi or RTX, no doubt due to cost and watts per hash.

https://www.techradar.com/news/best-mining-gpu

As for the returns, I can absolutely believe it, although I strongly believe most of them are software related, and if I bought a product and got black screens, was unable to play the games I wanted to play, or other issues which resulted in a negative experience, I'd return it as well, especially if the place doesn't charge a restocking fee, and buy a competitor product. No doubt some of them are due to people who don't know anything about computers trying to fit a card requiring 2.25-3 slots in their PC that only has room for two.

[pokester]

I agree that likely it is not the hardware as to being why they are returned but the software. The sales guy told me they do test the hardware before putting them back on the shelf to sell as open box. 

I saw in your other post about your comments being moderated. Mine have been too for some reason. Not sure why. 

[black_zion]

Well one thing's for sure, AMD stock is in free fall, with some experts and firms putting it at $38, 35% lower than it is now, so all facets of the company are going to come under more scrutiny. Right now all the Radeon issues are pretty limited to tech sites, forums, and social media. Imagine when the investment companies start talking about it as well, and they start reducing their estimates because of such issues. Combine this with the fact that RDNA2 may not be competitive at all against Ampere outside the entry and -maybe- mid level market, and that's going to have AMD lean very heavily on Zen 3 to make up the difference.

[pokester]

This is why I don't get too excited when a tech stock jumps up or down all of a sudden. What it does over the long haul matters most to me. Sure if you get lucky and happen to buy low and 2 months later cash out selling high it's great but it's like a slot machine its not the norm and usually you will end up losing money. 

I had read a few weeks back about stock analysts saying AMD was over valued and another report showing they were really behind paying vendors. To me this is more telling than a rise in value for a few quarters. 

Kinda like nVidia who really had a bad year last year but has now suddenly made that up and then some. Historically over the past 20 years though they have done well. Last week the argument was made that percentage wise AMD stock makes you more money. This week the tables are turned.  Question is how long does it hold for any of these companies. Definitely a lot more to look at than what have you done for me lately. One things for sure you are only as good as your product cycle in the tech world.

[black_zion]

There's also another possible wrench in the system, called GeForce NOW. Going by reports the next generation consoles could cost in excess of $500, and Microsoft has stated there will be no XBOX Exclusive titles. GeForce NOW is only a few dollars a month, and you can play any game in the library on a cheap PC connected to your TV and use a gamepad.

[pokester]

Now no xbox exclusive titles from a couple articles I read meant that they were not just on the XBOX, and that all those titles would now be on PC as well, like they have done with some of the Microsoft titles the last few years. So I guess it comes down to exactly what do they mean?

[hardcoregames_]

pokester wrote:

Now no xbox exclusive titles from a couple articles I read meant that they were not just on the XBOX, and that all those titles would now be on PC as well, like they have done with some of the Microsoft titles the last few years. So I guess it comes down to exactly what do they mean?

Microsoft took a lot of flack for console exclusives over the life of the original Xbox, Xbox 360 and this continued with the Xbox One. Management has realized the PC gamer's wallet is stuffed with more pesos than some console peasant has.

[pokester]

One of the reasons I loved Steam is that I could play my games on many PC's even my Mac if the game is supported etc. 
I definitely like any move that allows a game I purchase to not be locked to just one source for playing it. I have played several games now that my son plays on his XBox One and I play it on my PC. I love that they are doing that and hopefully will do this a lot more. 

[hardcoregames_]

pokester wrote:

One of the reasons I loved Steam is that I could play my games on many PC's even my Mac if the game is supported etc. 
I definitely like any move that allows a game I purchase to not be locked to just one source for playing it. I have played several games now that my son plays on his XBox One and I play it on my PC. I love that they are doing that and hopefully will do this a lot more. 

I only have MacBook Retina with integrated Intel graphics, not many games run on that hardware

[black_zion]

I think moreso the overall demand for cross play from gamers and the demand from game developers to be able to sell more games is really starting to win out. Also the XBOX is supposed to be significantly less expensive than the PS5, so if they can keep the exclusive titles on the PS5 to a minimum, it's a win for them.

[black_zion]

Also, AMD reopened their fan gear store, and you can now buy a whole set of Ryzen stuff in a wood box for $150...

https://www.amdfanstore.com/shop-all/

[hardcoregames_]

Wonder if many fanbois will go for the box set as opposed to the more common t-shirt and or ball cap

[pokester]

I read yesterday the FrostPunk 2077 will be available on PC and the new XBox when it comes out if you buy it on XBox One. Nice to see more developers buying into this idea. 

[hardcoregames_]

pokester wrote:

I read yesterday the FrostPunk 2077 will be available on PC and the new XBox when it comes out if you buy it on XBox One. Nice to see more developers buying into this idea. 

I saw that too, should be popular enough on the PC.

Microsoft sold a lot of Halo when they came to Steam. I preordered it and after I played it a while, friends jumped onboard.

Halo made it to #3 on the Steam active list on release day. I still play it a lot.

[black_zion]

Alright, possibly big news today: "Big Navi" specs sans price and clocks may have been leaked from an SK Hynix report. Take it with a note of skepticism, but I've never seen something made up coming from something which looks like an official report like this, usually they're slides which anyone can easily fake. SK Hynix is also supposed to be the supplier of the HBM2e. If it does turn out to be correct specifications for the RX 5950XT, it would be over twice as fast as the 5700XT for sure, and should make it faster than the 2080Ti, and about equal with the Titan RTX. However, it is without a doubt going to be UNGODLY expensive with that 24GB HBM2e, anything less than $1000 is going to be a miracle, and this is in no way going to disrupt 4K, especially if Ampere performs up to the hype.

So why does this card exist?

https://www.wccftech.com/amd-next-gen-flagship-radeon-rx-navi-gpu-specs-leak-5120-cores-24-gb-memory/

[hardcoregames_]

with 80 CU it might leverage my 4K panel more effectively

My RX 480 has a measly 36 CU and while respectable, it has become apparent I need a substantial boost in graphics

GDDR6 on a card would reduce the street price over HBM

[black_zion]

And a bit more news, Xbox Head Phil Spencer officially confirmed two things. One is that the Xbox Series X will feature a 12 TFlop GPU supporting Ray Tracing. That's 20-25% faster than the 5700XT, assuming their rating methods are identical.

Also, pokester‌ this goes to your post, Smart Delivery will be a core feature so you can buy a game on one console and play a different version on another console if the developer chooses.

And the second thing is that it is quite likely the ugliest console out there. I mean come on, a tower design may be heat friendly, but they could have at least given it chrome highlights or molded slots in for people to either buy or 3D print their own designs.

https://www.news.xbox.com/en-us/2020/02/24/what-you-can-expect-next-generation-gaming/

[hardcoregames_]

bad URL

What You Can Expect From the Next Generation of Gaming - Xbox Wire 

[black_zion]

And it's fake, probably to the surprise of nobody.

https://news.skhynix.com/official_statement_recent_media_reports_regarding_sk_hynixs_hbm2e_and_amds_next-gen_gpu_are_misleading/

[Anonymous]

AMD don't you even start with HBM2e you haven't optimized HBM2 yet.

[hardcoregames_]

john007 wrote:

AMD don't you even start with HBM2e you haven't optimized HBM2 yet.

GDDR6 should be fine as it has lots of bandwidth for workstations and gaming needs.

[black_zion]

I can see them going with HBM2e, BUT they're going to have to limit it to professional cards, both because it drives up the price to noncompetitive levels, but also because of its demand for cryptocurrency mining. Also AMD had a massive fiasco with Vega cards because of their packaging issues, and you can't take a card designed for HBM and make it GDDR. So unless they can get all that sorted to perfection, and then sort their drivers out to perfection, "Big Navi" is going to just be a very little blip on the radar.