PC Graphics

[davidovo]

Hi Guys, 

I've been working in the IT industry  for over 10 years now, as first as a technician and now an application integrator.

I experienced Gaming at first by playing Warcraft, don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about Warcraft 2 or Warcraft 3! I Mean the first Warcraft in Local IPX Network connection. You'll probably have to google it to understand. 

I remember buying the first AMD X2 processor with a nice AMD Radeon graphic card and how bad the products were couldn't even be described with words. The multiple processor was not optimized to work well with gaming causing GTA San andreas to be in constant acceleration unless you cut one of the CPU through the Task manager before. 

I then decided to stick with Intel for the past years until the Graphic card shortage happened and I was in need of a new computer. 

I just built this computer with a AMD Ryzen 7 3800X processsor, ASUS ROG STRIX B450-F GAMING II Mother board along with the AMD Radeon RX 6600 XT graphic card + an AMD compatible Monitor View sonic to give this business another chance. 

Everyone needs a second chance in life you know... Then, since the computer shut down because the graphic card was overheating I started to have flashbacks from the time I was using the garbage Cataclyst control center application to manage my old Radeon card. I remembered how bad it was and how bad it is still is with the new ATI Manager. 

After an update for no valid reason, my profile got reset to default causing my fan to run on 0 RPM (EXPLAIN ME WHY THIS WOULD BE DEFAULT IN ANY WORLD SITUATION?).

I decided to forget about it but since opening Chrome became an issue (related to the graphic card drivers, I proved it by uninstalling the drivers and everything worked well Right after). 

Anyhow, if anyone read this, please, stick to Intel no matter what. Don't be tempted to save 200 $ dollars, the frustration and the struggle is not worth. 

AMD, start over man this is just so bad

[johnnyenglish]

I have a colleague named David as well and He has a 6600XT too. Although he picked the wrong AIB brand because its overheating a bit, however.. the performance is up to par for what he says.

I've just posted elsewhere in another topic the reason for picking up AMD, see? I've come a long way with CPU's and graphics cards since am386 or cirrus logic. I also work with Intel everyday.

For your problem, I think that the ZERO dB default option is a great thing. You should be careful when picking the AIB brand for your card, I mean it. My RoG RX6800 doesn't even turn the fans on while playing and it stays well under 50ºC. While rendering hard my youtube videos it does turns the fans on of course, and then the temps drop to like 45ºC

I have the utmost respect for your 10 year as an IT but I believe that's not the way you should've start your post in the forum. I didn't started my first postings with: I have more than 20/25 (not even sure) years in IT. Not to demean you in any way of course.

I'm also a long time player. I did Doom multiplayer back in the day with a serial connection (SERSETUP and Deathmanager) in DOS. I understand your feeling, lots of people will search for serial connection in google.

Having said that.. 

The RDNA2 was literally the comeback from AMD to the Flagship market making nvidia think twice. Don't put Intel in the bag, ARC GPU's are...  well... google for it.

SPOILER ALERT: "THEY ARE BAD"

Good Luck with your system

[DRDOS]

By the way, Zero RPM is really great thing. My home PC is never off, so i'm actually enjoying it at nights.

Probably, it also worth to note this "green" part is not just a completely stopped fans... In RX 6000 series they finally implemented a ZeroCore idea right way, so that it finally is working properly. This way my PC total idle power consumption drops down to 30W and below if the screen is off, which definitely is the record for the past 20 years (my last PC that had so low idle power consumption was with S462 Athlon CPU running at 1GHz, VIA KT133 chipset and ATI PCI video card, all further PCs tended to have higher and higher idle power consumption up to 60-70 W).

When i got my first GPU ZeroCore was introduced in (HD 7850) and tested it, it wasn't stable, making the PC to hang or the driver to crash. After some driver version i noticed ZeroCore is disabled by default, which was a clear indicator there's a hardware design fault and it won't be working properly anymore. After years i tried to repeat the tests with some further GPUs (from R9 290 to RX 580), but results were rather negative.
Now, when i test new RX 6000 GPUs i can finally admit - all of those power saving related problems fixed.
Good thing about it - it just works as it should, all problems resolved.
Bad thing about it - it took so many years (GPU generations) to get accomplished.

Still, it works not ideally... Sometimes it doesn't turn into a zero power mode (something keeps it from turning it to, though nothing is happening on the desktop and the screen is turned off) and i see PC power consumption is at 40W with the screen turned off, GPU takes 10W as in normal 2D mode with the screen turned on (though it's off). Probably, some software utilizes the GPU keeping it awake in these moments. It could be some old win32 software running on the PC, i'll look into it later though...

[johnnyenglish]

ZerodB is, for me, A MUST! My computer is almost dead silent, sub 10dB if needed with only the intake 2x140 noctua fans working at 300rpm. I need it to do sound analysis on my vídeos, with headphones and with speakers. What ruins the quiet night is the mechanical keyboard

You remembered zerocore, I actually didnt dig much into this as my home computer philosophy changed, with all the RGB I have, saving 10-20 watts was not an objective and I always shut down my computers to save my gold coins. Also, Armoury Crate hates GPU standby, the RGB will go nuts because of AURA Sync. 

I got some feedback that zerocore was working in previous OS's but Windows 10 broke it. But I havent tried myself, so I can't really validate that feedback. But there are some info about it in this forum.

The RX480 never parked completely as the RX6800 one, but power comsuption was never High either. At its lowest state, 300mhz it did 20watts which is a bit irrelevant facing the fact that even though quality of PSU is much higher today, not all will be effective at lower power draw and this slim margin may disappear. Again, I cant really validate that, too much RGB and power hungry peripherals. 

I do have a perfect old computer to test that, more on that later. 

[DRDOS]

Generally an approach of making global decisions based on a single specific local factor or some single particular case is not quite correct...

A wide range of statistical data of many aspects has to be gathered, analyzed and inspected in a proper way in order to make such decisions.
There could be countless of possible reasons of the problems you may encounter working with the PC, blaming a developer of CPU or GPU of that PC in these problems without proper investigation won't help us to find the truth.

I'm going to write a bit more here because anyway this topic finally should go to some flood forum's section...

Just an example i faced with recently - several PCs i do admin begin to have mouse/keyboard stuttering issues right after video cards upgrade.
My first assumptions - GPU drivers issue, GPU/CPU/chipset design flaws (that take effect in specific conditions) - finally appeared to be incorrect.
Final result of investigation was - motherboard hardware issues (bad PCB/schematics design) triggered by the new video card EMI.
To figure out whether it's a video card EMI compatibility problem, we also have tested several other video cards of the same or higher power consumption that also emit such EMI that by the way is able even to disrupt Wi-Fi connections in 1 meter radius (including very old GPUs, such as HD 5850, and also Nvidia GPUs) - issue reproduced almost with all of these tested GPUs. Some information from motherboard developer also suggested these motherboards have this kind of hardware issue.
Finally, since the moment a workaround has been applied, all affected PCs are working flawlessly, so far. One of them is my home PC i am currently writing from.

Well, that's one point.

Another point is that an entire IT technology for the masses and the way it is being developed nowadays, especially x86 platform, currently is in serious crisis... As every crisis, this one results in a lot of problems, one of such problems is that consumers begin to face/experience more and more design flaws/failures that appear in specific conditions.
Things become complicated too much, therefore more tests and more complicated test cases are required in order to ensure no issues take place prior to launch a production stages. But practically it appears to be impossible to accomplish, as the market conditions and the way companies do business nowadays require things to be done ASAP. This all means more and more efforts are required to maintain the quality of the final product at least at the same level it was before. But there's nowhere and no way for more efforts to come from (unless development process has introduced something seriously/revolutionary changing it, such as intellectual power of AI, and so on), since human intellectual abilities remain the same where they were many thousands years ago, as natural evolution is proceeding very slowly they aren't able to keep up the high-tech changes so quickly, where the progress rate doubles complexity within 1-2 years.
As a result, quality degradation is inevitable, and we have no choice but to learn to deal with it. Until something revolutionary comes that fixes this entire crisis.

So, now, if we install a new hardware and/or software and it doesn't work, or doesn't work the way it should, it is normal nowadays. And it's most likely not the problem of some particular company producing that piece of hardware/software, but a global problem.
There's no company producing ideal products, all of them have problems. Thinking that products of some another company would help to get rid of all the problems is also not quite correct...

I believe, everybody who had in their business at least hundred of machines based on any Intel platform starting from Core/Core2 (with their notorious memory controllers, EIST and RDTSC problems and so on) till the modern ones know the way they are able to turn every day of your tech support into a nightmare. It's not that Intel goes bad, it's the way things normally are being done nowadays.
Exactly the same works for AMD, as well as for any other company working in consumer IT industry.
Running away from Intel to AMD or vice versa won't make your life easier, that's proven fact.

Well, these were 2 points explaining why we can't and shouldn't blame developers/vendors for.

Now, let's take a look from another side and figure out why we can and probably should blame them for...
It's not the secret a lot of people do like AMD's strategy of intersocket compatibility, that was really great thing about AMD. I know some who recently bought a modern AMD based PC having in thoughts they probably will have an opportunity to install a further "AM5" processors in their X570 AM4 motherboards.
Apparently, they got upset then by the news that AMD leaves their intersocket compatibility strategy and introduces completely another socket type. Which means there will no longer be any Socket AM5 nor any further AM4 compatible processors that would support both DDR4 and DDR5 memory types. Though, here we have some hopes AMD at least won't introduce several incompatible CPU generations within the same Socket/Memory type (the way that Intel does, switching sockets with no any actual need on a yearly basis as a modern fashion trends).

Alright, let's say we do understand why is this necessary to introduce more advanced type of socket. Let's imagine, it's actually being done due to limitations older socket type has that prevent to use more pins count, make CPU production cycle more complicated and CPU itself less protected to mechanical impacts. Perhaps, somebody will still blame AMD for this, but here and now we won't.
Let's finally turn to this subject's title. Thing #1 many now blame AMD for - new GPU series with downgraded PCIe ports. What on the earth ever is the reason to downgrade a PCIe port (as for RX 6600 XT mentioned in title) for the middle/low GPU segments? Personally i still have no exact answer to that question, but some suppositions...
Obviously, people that buy middle/low segment GPU most likely have either old or middle/low chipset based motherboard that most likely doesn't have PCIe version 4.0 support. People that are lack of budgets normally buy middle/low video card with middle/low motherboard, not top class motherboard, that was always normal practice. Because of the changes AMD has introduced PCIe port becomes a serious 'bottleneck' in that case, that makes user either to upgrade their motherboards to more expensive one that has PCIe version 4.0 support, or to buy more expensive GPU, such as RX 6700 at least that has non-downgraded PCIe port. This is simple ever logic, and i won't believe responsible for this decision people in AMD didn't understand it clear enough.

As far as i remember for the past 25 years, usually people were blaming Intel in making money in an unfair way, which though didn't make any effect as Intel proceeds doing that with even greater enthusiasm.
This, however, never took place in case of AMD. This company actively supported an open source communities, introduced an open APIs, stood against of monopoly in IT industry, against proprietary things where they rather slow down the progress than accelerate it, where proprietarity itself makes the platform to lose competitiveness (as we now observe in case of entire x86).
But recently, we notice such blames begin to turn towards AMD as well. Yes, we did accept a closed blobs in the firmwares, an equivalents of Intel ME and so on 'darkside' things (can understand why is this necessary), but unfortunately things keep going further that way... And nobody knows how far this may lead to. That's where we really should begin to worry right now. Because obviously it is the change into the wrong direction (We do remember the AMD logo meaning, but does AMD? - That is the question). And because there is nothing to "stick" or switch to since competitors aren't better in this regard at all.

Here, coming to this subject's title i can finally tell: for the past 30 years of using AMD devices (from their great K5/K6 processors), downgraded PCIe ports for the middle/low GPU segments is the first thing i begin to criticize AMD for and will proceed doing that until they refuse this sort of practice in their further products or explain exact reason why this was really necessary that much.

And finally, if you come to criticize, then try to do this seriously, in a rational, logical and constructive way, providing arguments and proper evidence. Not just something "stick to" "because i think so" "no matter what".

[davidovo]

I mean, the way I wrote my message was obviously trolling and in the purpose of being funny at the same time of expressing a real complain. I'm not expecting anyone here to fix my issue as the issue is the product itself. The reason why I ended up here is mainly because there is no other way to post a serious complain or to contact amd "easily" for assistance. 

If I could get assiatance, then I would post my entire investigation process and try to figure it out in a "serious way" like you said.

Also, most of you said I should expect the product not to work perfectly or correctly. It makes me question how you accept being sold bad products. When I pay 1300$ for a graphic card maybe it will surprise you but I expect it to work and not shut down after not even a months of using it.

My experience with Amd, no matter how your experience and understanding of the product was. Was **bleep**. And yes I can blame the vendors and devs for making a bad product. 

 From your 25 years of experience and +, if you tell me that the ATI graphic management software is good, I question your experience. If you tell me that the old Cataclyst control center was good, I really question your experience and knowledge. 

When dealing with such critical options and configuration for your Cpu/gpu and power usage units, I find it very unconsious to consider reseting all configuration to default without any warning. 

You are the only one who really seemed to have a related answer to my message though so thank you !!!! 

[johnnyenglish]

---

@davidovo wrote:

From your 25 years of experience and +, if you tell me that the ATI graphic management software is good, I question your experience. If you tell me that the old Cataclyst control center was good, I really question your experience and knowledge. 

---

Then you shouldn't question at all. Because i showed you respect for your experience.

But let me show where you failed and thus take this lesson with You for the future. 

We don't work or ever worked with Adrenalin in a professional IT environment, You should know that. There are Enterprise Drivers for RADEON/FIREPRO cards. No piece of software from consumer will get in those PC's, only enterprise versions that get tested thoroughly by our internal departments before being deployed and going to production. If they find something "bad" they can go thru proper channels for correction. Again, I'm talking a BIG retailer here, more than 400stores worldwide with an hardware count of over 900DELL computers per store.

Dont worry, you'll get there, to the 20 years of experience.  

[davidovo]

You still come back to the point of the Years of experience and Business Plan for managing IT Parks/servers/workstations and all that stuff but men, this ain't the point. I was trolling to make a funny introduction so get over it.

My point is, there is no way to complain directly to AMD, which is why I registered here (With no expectation to get any reply or help which I don't want). I only wanted leave a trace of my unsatisfying experience with AMD and the stupid 0RPM feature which is default. 

Otherwise, I would have called AMD support to dig more into "Why is my application ignoring my profile from times to times and reseting my configuration to 0RPM Default". 

Also, on multiple occasion, the Adrenaline software just ignored the curve I configured for my fan RPM versus Graphic card temperature and would not apply my changes. 

The software itself is bad and full of glitch and this is not what I expect when buying 1300$ graphic cards no matter how big is the company. 

Also you know what, I invested in AMD and Dell and their stock is just going down just like my appreciation of their products.

Don't worry, you'll get to understand that people can just come in here and won't take it as serious as you take it. 

[johnnyenglish]

Funny, you are the one that started the questioning and it also seems that you are also the one not over it.

But Hey, this is just a Community forum, you should expect people to reply. Even if all you did was a troll post and or rant. Maybe Facebook could be a better place to do it lol

What you shouldnt expect, is not having an answer from me with that kind of.. Well.. Weird questioning.

So in the end, this topic was just mere entertainment. But again, you would make more organic reach in Facebook lol

BTW we dont really care what your investments are and no! I wont ever understand why everyone comes to a community forums just to do what you did and to be honest. I really dont want to.

[davidovo]

I expect answers/reply and this is perfect like that, I didn't expect someone to right a book about it to be honnest but I do appreciate it! 

Have a good day !

[AMID_of_IT_all]

Very true. Too bad a normal consumer can't have access to stable Radeon drivers. It's Adrenalin or nothing, just dead hardware. That's why some folks started writing their own drivers. AMD driver software upsets your system in such a way that even the best troubleshooter will never know why it doesn't function at all or worse only functions partly.    

[toof]

I use AMD, because bugs in onboard graphics (Intel) are currently worse for me than bugs in USB support (AMD), but I don't care much about it anymore. I use different brands and I try until I give up the worst performer or throw something into the trash can / ebay. Generally I believe technology works best where lots of people use it (or they use it because it works the best, which is the goal for a competitor I guess), and when I'm feeling creative and doing things that are supported on paper but not tested in real world, it probably will not work, be it software or hardware.

Actually if advertisements (of any form, websites, descriptions, specs, etc) were a bit more honest or if I'd read more reddit threads about problems, I could have an easier life. I have learnt to google "[thing I want to buy] problems". Doing this hurts my buyers feelings (every product is flawed), but I'm better at doing this now.

[ThreeDee]

on the flip side .. my 6700xt has been a great 1440p card for me .. sorry you are having issues

..and I've had great experience with Athlon 64 X2 chips back in the day ..as well as various ATi/AMD cards I've ran

My daughter runs a 5700xt .. my wife runs an RX 550 2GB card currently.

I was having issues with my wife's 550 .. but swapping out the 500wtt 80 Plus (White) PSU for a 600wtt 80+ Gold resolved the issues.. so really I was having an issue with the power supply

[AMID_of_IT_all]

I think in general faulty design of PC hard and software has gained a lot of acceptance. If you compare these problems with the hard and software of smart phones one must conclude that the consumer does not accept bad working smart phones. I did not hear about stories of users who's phone died because of too much gaming on it. PC hardware that has been used for gaming is something I would stay away from especially if the sellers appears to have "technical knowledge" about what they sell.

IMHO processors and GPU's just die after having been used to operate on high temperatures daily because of the lack of server grade cooling. Decent cooling makes noise. Every component in a server stays well below 50C even at full capacity load 24/7. Sensitive components like GPU's and CPU's are being kept even cooler then that. The server itself is being maintained in a conditioned room where humidity and temperatures are low. That's how you run hardware at peak performance, no re-pasting needed. 

Under-volting and other ways of tinkering with it, like re-pasting every year or so, only makes matters worse. Please stay away from the GPU you want to sell with your static electricity loaded greasy fingertips. When no other choice left I'd rather buy the dust ball that came out of the PC in working condition instead of a shiny "serviced" GPU that they try to sell as if it was pure gold. It's not. It's soon to be trash you sell at best and pure trash at worst.  

Overclockers and gamers have ruined the PC market while as consumers they have the loudest voice. It has led to overly complicated bios software and overly complicated hardware power management that is now being done by algorithms. While these nitwits act as if they know all about integrated circuits they start crying and get angry when a design goes wrong. It goes wrong when an algorithm pushed the design over it's limits. When that happens their processor burns a whole in the socket of the motherboard and no amount of their stupid tweaking could have prevented that. Even letting the algorithm just do it's work is too much to ask for these fools while that's the best option they have for a more or less stable system assuming they didn't trash the parts by ESD while building it. Smart folks just turn PBO and XMP off. Who cares about that 8% extra performance only noticeable while gaming and measuring frame rates at the same time. Just read the datasheet of your memory chips and you'll see how much current is good for them.  

AMD and Intel have delivered just what the fools asked for in a neat package of hard and software. So just shut up and buy something else if it goes wrong once in a while and buy it all new when the system dies prematurely because of "smart" algorithmic over-volting. Maybe you'll learn that you can't over-volt and under-volt at the same time without corrupting the files the OS needs to run. Who could blame them for throwing in a bad driver once in while and read the reactions of these fools on the forums just for the pleasure of it and of course it's free content creation. To find reliable hardware information in the mess these idiots have created you must scroll through these forums and no amount of AI will help you to find what's relevant anymore. Given these circumstances I agree that what sells the best must be the best. 

[rog-hero]

I had 6 of these cards for mining seemed to perform quite well 27 m/h @ like 50 watts