OpenGL & Vulkan

[hitbm47]

Dear readers

My old post of the Nvidia GT 710 performing 100% better than the RX 480 @480p seems to have been deleted for some reason.

My current build is

- Latest Windows 10 64bit

- 16GB DDR3 1866Mhz RAM

- FX 8350 @4Ghz (4.2Ghz boost)

- Compatible motherboard

- RX 480 8GB Radeon Card (Adrenaline 20.11.3)

- GTX 1060 3GB Nvidia Card

The previous explanation from the team was that they were working on a fix for too many Occlusion calls from the game, whereas the problem didn't exist in 16.6.2 Crimson drivers but does for every driver after that up until now. @dorisyan 

These screenshots were taken on Facing Worlds on top of the Castle in Capture the Flag mode. With any Radeon card or APU with current drivers it struggles to maintain above 32FPS in a lot of maps, whereas the weaker 3GB GTX 1060 easily does 70FPS+ in these scenes.

RX 480 sub-acceptable performance:

GTX 1060 3GB acceptable performance in 2020 for 2005/2006 game:

Please do not delete this again without explaining if you are able or willing to improve this unplayable variable performance issue. This is crucial in deciding to stay with team Radeon instead of Nvidia. At least give an explanation; for example, "the developers only optimized for Nvidia" or "Nvidia must've included an optimization fix for it all these year" and therefore we have decided it is up to the developers to provide better scalability.

Kind regards

Jacques

[dorisyan]

Thanks for your report, we will focus on this issue. 🙂

[hitbm47]

Thank you @dorisyan , this is good news to read 🙂

[deepforest]

Realy? So, we can hope that situation with bad performance of Unreal Engine 3&4 on Radeons will be fixed? How long this can take?

[hitbm47]

Hi @dipak @dorisyan @xhuang 

I would just please like to know if there are any new findings in this matter.

Kind regards

[deepforest]

I hink. Sadly, AMD has far more pressing problems in drivers than the old game issue:(

[hitbm47]

@deepforest I don't think so, this has not been fixed since July 2016, which means AMD's RX 480 drivers has been faulty(since us end-consumers don't know the reason) for almost 5 years. AMD didn't even have a strong enough CPU on the market at the time to hide the issue, the only way to slightly mitigate the issue was having an absurtly strong single threaded CPU, such as a i5-7500k or i5-8400.

Therefore I would rate this as one of AMD's top pressing driver problems.

This is like making sure only the new tyres on your car are pumped, and therefore you don't have to worry about your flat old tyres at the rear of your car.

[hitbm47]

Look at the following screenshot, in 16.6.2 the radeon driver performed just as well in UT3 than the GTX 1060, what happened guys? This hasn't been fixed in almost 5 years.

[hitbm47]

Hi @dorisyan @dipak @xhuang I hope all is well with you guys.

It is important to know how the fix for Unreal Tournament 3 is coming along.

I am very glad with the improving Radeon Interface, but I am still experiencing exactly the same performance issues in Unreal Tournament 3 since just after 16.6.2 and even still with the latest 21.4.1 Radeon Driver which I installed today. Furthermore, I am still experiencing bad performance issues with Wolfenstein The New Order and The Old Blood only with Radeon cards.

Kind regards

[hitbm47]

Hi @Anonymous hope everyone at AMD well, I am wondering if you have any information on this.

Kind regards

[deepforest]

Hi. While we waiting official fix for UE3 and UT3 you can try semisolution, DXVK, it translate D3D to VULKAN and it bit help to improve fps in UT3 https://github.com/doitsujin/dxvk/releases

[hitbm47]

Hi @deepforest 

Thank you very much, I have also tried this in the past and it does help slightly here and there, but it's not perfect, still not close to what the performance used to be.

But might try the latest release at some point again.

Kind regards

[deepforest]

Ok. You can try also dxvk+rtss(scanlinesync) if you whant buttery smooth gameplay. For me with dxvk+rtss i have 120+ stabe fps where on d3d it drops to 40

ps and what performance fps you expect of fixed driver?

[hitbm47]

@deepforest 

I expect close to where it used to be for me. I used to get minimum 75FPS in CPU intensive scenarios, now it drops the 29FPS in the same scenarios. If I use DXVK brings in up to 45-56FPS in those scenarios. Less than 60FPS results in bad input response on UT3.

Kind regards

[deepforest]

Hi. What gpu and cpu you have? What video driver and what windows?

I can reproduce those(where you have drop fps) scernarios or places in UT3 on my PC?

ps rx580 20.12.1 here

[hitbm47]

Hi @deepforest , excuse me for only replying now.

I am currently using,

- my AMD FX 8350 CPU at stock settings,

- Latest version of Windows 10 Professional 64-bit,

- Latest Radeon Driver (21.5.1, please note the Windows version doesn't seem to matter, only that using any driver newer than 16.6.2),

- Having a better CPU does help slightly, but please note I was getting 90FPS where I am now getting 28FPS.

One of the best maps to test on is Deck, and I will attach the locations now, also note that resolution or settings doesn't matter, I will attach a screenshot where I got 28FPS on 640x480.

Ok sorry they are limiting on barely being able to upload an image, but the whole level is a mess, I'll upload the 640x480 one since it is the worst location:

Basically stand next to the portal and look towards the other-side of the radioactive pool.

Kind regards

[deepforest]

@hitbm47hello!

---

@hitbm47 wrote:

Hi @deepforest , excuse me for only replying now.

No problem. Glad to hear you) And excuse me for my poor English)

Now i using:

-Win10x64 20H2(also have Win7x64)

-rx580(20.12.1)(but after 16.6.2 it doesn't matter)

-Ryzen 5 2600(at stock settings)

(before i had Xeon e1240 Sandy Bridge 2011y, i had 100fps where now i have 120 using Vulkan, at D3d i had drops to 40fps)

-lasted DXVK x32(not x64) dlls for UT3(you need use x32 dxvk dlls for x32 games and x64 dxvk dlls for x64 games)

And what situation you have at UT4?

This is map Unsaved, at Stinger location

May be so small fps at all games based on Unreal Engine 3 and 4 its problem of AMD drivers? I hear that Unreal Engine the best optimised for Nvidia not for Radeons.

[hitbm47]

Hi @deepforest 

Thank you for your response, don't worry English isn't my first language as well.

That Ryzen 5 2600 has very good IPC already. But you'll see if you strafe left and right a few times in that scene in DX9 you'll likely get frame drops to 48-54FPS, that's what happens to me by using the DXVK wrapper at least since my FPS is around 60 standing still in DXVK with that scene.

Thank you for your efforts to take that screenshot and prove the issue exists and most Radeon Hardware and newer driver versions than (16.6.2). I do not currently have Unreal Tournament (UE4) installed, but it was performing quite well on my system, I was getting 80-100FPS+ a lot of times.

I do not think AMD has to bad issues on UE4, since I own a lot of them and they play much better than Unreal Tournament 3, like PUBG, Ride 4, etc. I do however believe Unreal Engine 4 is slightly better optimized for Nvidia, since I was getting like 2-4FPS more on my GTX 1060 3GB in Ride 4 under max GPU load, where in Prey my RX 480 funny enough gets 20-30FPS more under max GPU load even when it is a DirectX 11 game. Don't know if they were maybe able to use ASync Compute in that game.

And then taking UE4 out of the equation, DirectX11 and OpenGL games tend to scale quite a lot better on Nvidia over the CPU than AMD Radeon does, I don't know why, if it is because of Deferred Contexts and Commands Lists that AMD left out apparently, but it is quite bothersome that they launched the first DX11 card, but in the majority of games their DX11 CPU Utilization leaves me in the dust.

Another thing about using DXVK is the input responses feel different at the same framerates, and I don't know if this is because Vulkan/DirectX12 are low level APIs.

Kind regards

[deepforest]

Agree.

So, why if you have 1060 you dont use it for UT3?

And what we must to do? Whait until AMD fix UT3 performance through drivers?

[hitbm47]

Hi @deepforest 

I do sometimes play it on my GTX 1060 3GB, but I mostly use my GTX 1060 for PhysX and I would prefer to play games on my Radeon since the input response feels a little more precise when at the same frame-rates, a game like Killing Floor 2 almost uses the GTX 1060 to 100% in PhysX while my RX 480 renders the rest of the game. Furthermore, I have found some games missing graphics on Radeon drivers and if I don't play with Radeon I will never report them and reporting them too late in a case like this it can take years before they decide to fix it.

I don't know why they can't provide a little feedback, in 2018/2019 they said they found the root cause and almost had a fix ready, and since the new website launched they have deleted that post of mine and have barely given any feedback on their fix since. The same with Crysis 3, their Driver seems to be hating some versions of CryEngine since 2016 as well. We had a huge post of it where the AMD user Colesdav made a lot of effort to post performance issues even on AMD's latest hardware.

Kind regards

[hitbm47]

Hi everyone,

I would appreciate to know if there is any news on this issue? AMD barely seems to be replying to peoples problems anymore and Scott Wasson; whom is high up in AMD; did not want do weigh in on this post, since I see his @ changed to "anonymous".

I am trying to get into contact with Epic game developers, since some people like to say we should put the pressure on game developers, but AMD and game developers do like to ignore helping as much as they can.

Kind regards

[deepforest]

@dorisyan wrote:

Thanks for your report, we will focus on this issue. 🙂

---

So its a words sounds like bla, bla, bla? "We working", "We focusing", "Work in progress" but when, its not specified ? 1, 2, 5 years or never?

"to promise does not mean to do"

[hitbm47]

Hi @dorisyan 

I have now tested on 21.6.1 and there still has not been any improvement, and I have now also tested that this issue causes major performance issues in Heroes of Might and Magic 7 as well, and possibly related is Alien Colonial Marines running quite badly on recommended AMD hardware as well.

It is very worrisome that support for the R9 200 series cards has now ended; also a card that ran Unreal Tournament 3 flawlessly on 16.6.2; but this performance issue has been existing since June 2016.

So I as the end-user went as far as having to contact Epic games again, because it seems there is no consensus here and this is what one of their employees responded:

"Hi there again!

Thank you for replying back and for your feedback and concern.

I understand now that your concern is Unreal Tournament 3. Unreal Tournament 3 and 4 both fall into the category of the Unreal Tournament game as a whole and as I mentioned before, as Epic Games Player Support we cannot comment on the status of Unreal Tournament at this time. This game is currently on hold as we focus our attention on other projects. But if you have any other queries or concerns that may arise, please do not hesitate to contact us once again.

Regards,"      I am not mentioning is name to prevent him/her getting in trouble.

But clearly Epic Games is not going to fix it, so does this now mean that AMD is going to continue not properly supporting Unreal Engine games in the future or vice-versa? Certainly looks that way, I guess people who want to play Unreal Engine games should buy Nvidia GPUs.

And this note in the new drivers is absolutely ridiculous when there are still so much DirectX11 performance issues with all Generations of GCN cards from this link: https://community.amd.com/t5/blogs/product-and-os-support-update-for-radeon-software-adrenalin-21-6/...

"For users passionate about gaming, you may wish to consider upgrading to a modern GPU and benefit from exciting new features, improved performance, lower power consumption and broader compatibility with the latest PC games. For information about current graphics products and where to buy, please visit: AMD Radeon™ RX Graphics Cards"

How can you end support for 2 Generations of cards that cannot be properly Utilized by recommended hardware?

[hitbm47]

Hi @dorisyan  @dipak  @xhuang 

The removal of Radeon Additional Settings in 17.7.2 caused a major decrease in performance for a lot of older games up until 21.6.1, I mean up to a x4 decrease in minimum framerates (80FPS down to 29FPS in most of cases).

Way too much games are affected by this, but ones I can definitely point out are Unreal Tournament 3, Heroes of Might and Magic 7.

To name more games that most likely will also be greatly affected by it are Borderlands 2, most Batman games, Bioshock 1 (probably 2 and maybe 3).

Can we please, very please get this to AMD's attention! Otherwise we have to continually uninstall and reinstall between 17.6.2 and 21.6.2 just to play those games properly. This greatly affects new AMD products as well since they can't use 17.6.2.

Is there a way to get some of those libraries or DLLs working again? I don't want Radeon Additional settings back but whatever libraries concerning them was removed contained optimizations that was also removed. This is critical!

Kind regards

[deepforest]

AMD doesn't want hear us

[hitbm47]

Hi @deepforest 

I really hope we can kindly encourage either @dipak / @xhuang / @deepforest / @guy_ludden / @alexander_blake-davies / @warren_eng  to please investigate my findings in that AMD accidently deleted all Unreal Engine 3 optimizations with the release of 17.7.2 due to removing "Radeon Additional Settings" and probably some of the critical libraries.

This actually effects Navi, some other user just posted screenshots of his framerates in one of the same areas where he was supposed to be getting 331.2FPS but is only getting 120FPS because of the accidental removal of Unreal Engine 3 optimizations.

Kind regards

[xhuang]

Hi @hitbm47 & @deepforest , AMD DOES value your feedback. Very appreciate this!

I will report this issue to the internal engineering team, and keep you updated.

[hitbm47]

Hi @xhuang 

Thank you very much for responding to me, I am so glad to finally get some feedback from driver developers again.

But I would really appreciate if you can please inform me/us in due time if you are planning to restore the performance again for all Radeon owners whom used to ran it fawless?

Really please.

Kind regards

[xhuang]

@hitbm47,  are you running the D3D9 version, instead of GL version? Can you confirm this, as we have separate driver teams for Dx and OpenGL

[hitbm47]

Hi @xhuang 

Thank you for your response, yes as I have mentioned in the previous comments AMD lost their DirectX 9 Unreal Engine 3 optimizations when they removed something related to "Radeon Additional Settings" in 17.7.2.

This has a great negative impact on all DirectX 9 releases of Unreal Engine 3 games, and yes those games only come with DirectX 9 releases, there are no options to play them with OpenGL.

Kind regards

[hitbm47]

Hi @xhuang 

I hope you are well, I would just like to ask if you were able to forward it to the correlating driver team?

Kind regards

[hitbm47]

Hi @xhuang @dorisyan @dipak 

I have tested the Unreal Engine 3 on 21.6.2 and the performance is still just as horrible, if not worse.

Can we please make this a priority, since this is something all Radeon users since 17.7.2 has suffered for the last Four years and naturally a driver that has to be released for all Radeon users since then.

Who knows what other optimizations was erroneously removed related with the removal of Radeon Additional Settings in 17.7.2!

Is there any news on the investigation of the issue @xhuang ?

Kind regards

[xhuang]

This issue has already been forwarded to our internal driver team. Myself is not focusing on DX driver, and I will share the progress if I have any update.

[hitbm47]

Hi @xhuang 

Thank you very much for your help and efforts in doing so, I really appreciate it and I understand you use to be/are doing good things at the OpenGL team.

My concern is really just for this to get ignored again, and I will appreciate it if you update me as you have confirmed you will do twice now.

I / we will really appreciate if some of you can just check up on them every now and then, I know & understand you are busy with other things. But, this is not something to be taken up lightly since it affects half of the user base for Four years and above that whom suddenly got dropped in the dumpster with the news of 21.6.1 dropping their loyal supporters.

Kind regards

[hitbm47]

Hi @dipak 

I know you have notified me that you are still awaiting a response from the DirectX team. I would just like to state here that I have tested the latest 21.7.1 driver and the issue is still persistent.

Kind regards

[hitbm47]

Hi @xhuang  @dipak  @dorisyan 

Since videos do not work here on AMD communities anymore, I have gone through the efforts of uploading videos to youtube of the AMD Unreal Engine 3 issue, please note even though I used a Ryzen 5 1600 in this video the performance drop is still major (Remember with a FX 8350 this bad driver issue of the second video translates to 29-40FPS in those affected areas):

Here is the awesome performance of 17.7.1 or earlier:

https://youtu.be/Pt0K8_SDevs

Here is the bad performance on 21.7.1 after Unreal Engine 3 DirectX9 optimizations have been lost in 17.7.2:

(please take note of the areas I am momentarily stationary since they are also in the screenshots on this post)

https://youtu.be/Q7vWCyE6WHk

[deepforest]

Same here. My two cents.

Unreal Tournament 3 | DX9 Performance | 20.12.1 driver | Win10 | rx580

[hitbm47]

Hi @deepforest 

Thanks a lot for also going through the efforts of providing a video with the performance issue, this just solidly proves it then that there has been a huge decrease immediately after 17.7.1.

The colours of your game looks really nice though.

Kind regards

[deepforest]

>The colours of your game looks really nice though.

Yea) Its some tricks. Color ini mod and community patch.

Color

https://forums.epicgames.com/unreal-tournament-3/ut3-general-chat/231868-tutorial-ini-color-tweak-pi...

http://www.mediafire.com/?vi9p1p3wv80q3bd

Patch

https://www.epicgames.com/unrealtournament/forums/past-unreal-tournament-games/unreal-tournament-3/4...

https://bit.ly/ut3-community-edition

PS today later i can show performance on Vulkan

[hitbm47]

Hi @deepforest 

I know about DXVK, but the problem is DXVK does not fix all the UE3 games that are affected by this, since some of them do not render properly when using DXVK libraries.

Furthermore, DXVK does not bring the performance nearly to the level it used to be on recommended CPUs with 17.7.1 and earlier for Unreal Tournament 3.

Edit: thank you for providing that links, I might have a look at them later.

Kind regards