General Discussions

[black_zion]

Decidedly not what AMD needs to see right now. It does appear that mainstream cards, in a properly optimized game, are capable of 1920x1080 60fps performance average, which is going to spur game developers to include it, so if Navi lacks ray tracing, they're going to be at a significant disadvantage. Plus it only costs $350 while having Vega64 levels of performance, a card $50 more expensive...

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/nvidia-geforce-rtx-2060-ray-tracing-turing,5960.html

...which leads to the second part: Sapphire immediately issued price cuts to their Vega cards (which have since been canceled, no doubt on AMD's orders). As PCGamesN points out, this would not have happened if Navi with GTX 1080 levels of performance (as was stated by AMD to be the case) was anywhere near, they'd have dumped the cards because they're going to collect dust on the shelf. Now they're just going to collect dust on the shelf, especially with nVidia to support VESA Adaptive Sync (FreeSync) starting January 15th​ meaning Freesync users aren't tied to AMD.

https://www.pcgamesn.com/amd/sapphire-rx-vega-graphics-card-price-drops

[ajlueke]

6 Gb of VRAM on a $350 card?  Even the GTX 1070 it replaced had 8.  Tsk tsk.

[pokester]

I agree 6 is too Little. I don't think it replace the 1070, well it does. What I mean is it is the new 1060. The new 1070, the 2070 is yet to be announced. If that is in the 4-450 range and 8gb that will be stellar.

[ajlueke]

"The new 1070, the 2070 is yet to be announced".  Yet to be announced?  You can buy one...right now.

In reality, NVidia shifted all their models numbers down one this generation, to make it look like there was a bigger performance improvement this generation than their was.  Basically, they are all slightly faster rehashes of the 1000 series with tensor cores added for ray tracing.

The RTX 2060 is essentially the new GTX 1070, while the 2070 replaces the 1080, the 2080 replaces the 1080 Ti, all at approximately the same price point even.  The 2080 Ti then, is a new level of performance that had no analogous card in the 1000 series, and they priced it to match that.  The new GTX 1060 then, will be the RTX 2050, if their is such a thing.

[ajlueke]

All kidding aside, the reviews I've read the RTX 2060 delivers about 95% of Vega 64 performance at $350.  That is already a pretty good deal, and coupled with the fact that you can use any Freesync monitor with NVidia in a week is damning enough.  What's left to do?  Maybe throw a game bundle on top of that?

Done.

[black_zion]

Ugh, game bundles, wish they would go away...Give me half the "value" back as cash any day. If Vega 64 had, say, a "5 Game Megapack worth $200", for example, or a $100 rebate, which would you rather have? Free games are worthless, especially if you either already have the game or have no interest in the games offered, whereas cash turns a card priced against its rival in performance into a card priced against it's inferior competitor's card. Remember the DEAL ALERT: MSI RX 580 $147.99 on Amazon with AmEx card & mail in rebate​ which would you rather have, a $148 card, or a $200 card with $50 in "free games"?

[ajlueke]

True enough, but on the flip side of that, they are better than nothing.  Sure, I have no desire to buy or play Battlefield V, but I have been entertaining the idea of picking up Anthem.

Back to the original post, I wonder if Sapphire jumped the gun on the price cuts with Vega.  There is rumor that AMD might reveal a Vega II during the keynote tomorrow and that might be coupled with price cuts for the existing line.  Unfortunately, I don't expect much from AMD as GCN limits what they can do with the architecture.  Looking back, GCN gained a lot of performance from the 7970 to the Fury X, all on the same process node.  So I think all the optimizations that can be done, have been done.

That assertion is supported by the fact that Vega essentially had the identical IPC to the Fury X.  The only performance gains came from the process node shrink to 14nm from 28nm which netted about a 30%-40% uptick from higher clockspeeds.  If a Vega II does launch, it will essentially just be a 7nm version of the 14nm Vega, which will again only gain performance based on improved clockspeeds.   I don't think we'll see big improvements until Arcturus honestly, at least not improvements in IPC.  If they gain a similar 30%-40% as in the last die shrink, that would put Vega II at a RTX 2080 level of performance, but well behind the RTX 2080 Ti.  Navi then, will fall in place at the RTX 2070 level for $250.

[black_zion]

The problem is HBM2. It's expensive and in short supply, which means AMD needs every chip for the high performing, well selling, high margin Radeon Instinct MI50 and MI60, which feature 7nm Vega 20 units performing 20%+ better than Vega 10. Vega II will supposedly launch this year to hold AMD over until 2020, but with performance likely between the 2060 and 2070, lack of ray tracing (very limited appeal at this time of course), and expensive HBM2 on board, it may be priced too competitively against the RTX 2070 to make a splash.

[ajlueke]

The performance of Vega is already between the 2060 and 2070.  Looks like the bump is about 30% again with Vega VII, exactly what we got with the last die shrink, putting it right at the RTX 2080 for $699.  The suprising thing is that they actually threw in an extra HBM2 stack, giving Vega VII 16 GB total

[pokester]

I would have been fine with an 8gb variant that's cheaper. That may yet come in a Vega 56 refresh?

[ajlueke]

I doubt it.  Vega VII is effectively a Vega VII 60.  It has less stream processors and compute units than the Vega 64, but more than the Vega 56.  In fact, it is exactly between the two.  I doubt they would make a variant with only 4 more compute units or 4 less.

The 30% speed bump is in line with expectations, as I said above.  That was exactly what we got with the die shrink from Fury X to Vega 64.  Both Fury X and Vega had 64 compute units though, and an equal number of stream processors, it is a little surprising to see it pared down a bit in Vega VII

[pokester]

Did not know that thanks!

[hardcoregames_]

where does that leave my RX 470?

[ajlueke]

Unchanged.  Still obsolete .

[hardcoregames_]

My RX 470 hsd 2048 stream processors,. which is a lot more than my old HD 7870

Its also 4th gen GCN vs 1st gen

so I expect some performance gains

[black_zion]

Looks like Vega II is actually imminent, but it's priced out of the realm of reason.

AMD Announces Vega II for February 7th: $699, ~30% performance improvement vs Vega 64​

[ajlueke]

It is a strange launch to be sure, and sort of a strange card.  The Vega VII is launching as a single model, with 60 compute units and stream processors to match, exactly in-between the Vega 56 and Vega 64.  So there will only be a Vega VII 60, as opposed to two separate versions. 

It is interesting that AMD priced it exactly at the RTX 2080 price point.  While the performance will likely be similar (above in Vulkan, similar or below in DX11), it doesn't do ray-tracing so it seems like you actually get more for your money with an RTX 2080.  However, the Vega VII has 16 GB for video memory at a much higher bandwidth, double the VRAM of the RTX 2080 in fact.  It actually has 2/3 of the VRAM and performance of a Titan RTX, at just over 1/4 the cost.  That could make this the go to card of content creators home systems as well as useful for data scientists.

So AMD might find itself in a situation once again where an audience beyond gamers will be picking up the card, making it difficult for gamers to pick one up.

[hardcoregames_]

at $699 I believe that is a bit overpriced

Vega 64 cards are still hard to find due to digital coin hogs

[ajlueke]

You can get the Powercolor vega 64 Air, for $399 on Newegg right now.  The liquid version is currently $499.  You can get the AREZ Strix from ASUS for $459.

I don't think the intent is to have Vega VII replace the Vega 56/64 in the product stack, but be offered in addition to the existing products, in the RTX 2080 tier.  It is interesting, as the Vega VII doesn't have dedicated ray tracing at the same price point, but doubles the VRAM of the RTX 2080 with way more bandwidth to boot.

[pokester]

Yah, the kicker is that they are claiming this card is aimed at gamers but no game will come close to benefiting from that bandwidth or overall amount of memory. So really it is a slick card still for compute customers but I don't see it as overly viable for gamers at least not compared to direct competition. Even within the AMD camp already. That Vega 64 for 400 is IMHO a much better way to go. Unless you are 4k gaming I don't even see those as really viable over the RX580 at least not from a price difference point. Obviously my opinion is base on my needs most the time and everyone else has their own opinion.

[hardcoregames_]

Prices on NewEgg today were higher than you state. I was hoping to find a Sapphire Nitro but none are available.

[ajlueke]

"Prices on NewEgg today were higher than you state". 

Really?  Let's check it out.

"You can get the Powercolor vega 64 Air, for $399 on Newegg right now.  The liquid version is currently $499."

Well that checks out.  " You can get the AREZ Strix from ASUS for $459."

Looks like they all check out. 

[hardcoregames_]

only one card, asus was with a dual fan cooler, i hate blowers

the discount only surfaced after I last did a price check

guess I am sticking to my RX 470 a while longer

[ajlueke]

It is nice that they dropped the horrendous air cooler from Vega 64 air.  While not as nice as Fury X or Vega 64 Liquid, a decent three fan cooler is a welcome upgrade.

[black_zion]

Still, at $700, you can get a RTX 2080 for that price. I know they're targeting Vega II at content creators, but it's way out of line as far as price goes compared to the original Vega 64 at $400, 75% higher for a realistic 30% performance improvement. Now if it were priced at $400 then yes, but at $700 it shouldn't shift a single unit...

[ajlueke]

I think the original Vega 64 launch MSRP was $499?  But it is a $200 increase.  The problem is, AMD isn't challenging the NVidia price structure.  NVidia set the $500 price point for the GTX 1080 and $350 for the 1070, while the GTX 1080 Ti occupied the $700 price point.  It has since put the RTX 2070 and 2060 and RTX 2080 at those same price points, while creating a entirely new price point with the 2080 Ti.

AMD then is just putting their GPUs relative to the NVidia price structure.  AMD never had a GPu that performed at the 1080 Ti/RTX 2080 level before, and now they do, so they are pricing it accordingly.  While the Vega 64 performs between the RTX 2060 and 2070, so it is also priced in that range.  I don't think much will change until the Navi launch, provided it really does deliver RTX 2070 performance for $250.  But with the pricing of Vega VII you have to think that Navi either doesn't perform that well, or it is still more the 2quarters away.