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BOMBSHELL: NO Ryzen 4000 Series "Zen 3" support for 300/400 series chipset motherboards

Well this is highly disappointing, especially considering this is the last of Socket AM4, with Zen 4 coming on a new socket. Would you buy a new motherboard just to support one generation of processors, when the next will come with such massive improvements like PCIe 5, DDR5, and USB4, especially since you just spent $300+ on an X370/X470 board a year or two? I sure as heck ain't, and I have a feeling quite a number of people will feel the same.

Per https://community.amd.com/community/gaming/blog/2020/05/07/the-exciting-future-of-amd-socket-am4  And AMD's official side:

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Powerful laptops are expensive. I prefer PC if possible.
I still wait to see what HP Omen and Dell Alienware will come up with.

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The question becomes how much do you want to sacrifice to get the price down for the Thunderbolt 3 port.

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Hmm, actually the part about AMD was out of position to demand expensive enough boards to 100% run latest zens makes sense.

Still AMD may let MOBO guys develop unofficial grey bios. Regular customer probably wouldn't even know about such thing exits, until he'll see a giant "ZEN 3 SUPPORT" logo on a mobo box. 

It's the same thing as overclocking basically. Enthusiast uses it on a daily basis, regular customer doesn't even know what it is or thinks it's smth bad. 

Anyway it would be nice at least to hear a good comprehensive response and explanation from AMD. They need to wisely damage-control the situation. I think they can do it. 

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I cannot see why it is in the interest of the Motherboard manufacturers to spend any effort to provide a BIOS to allow the use of older motherboards with new CPUs though.

They will want you to have to buy a new motherboard.

It is how they make money.

I am actually annoyed about the situation as well.

I have builds using these:
ASUS ROG CROSSHAIR VII HERO (WI-FI) | ROG - Republic Of Gamers | ASUS USA 
Maximus 
and these:
B450 TOMAHAWK | Motherboard - The world leader in motherboard design | MSI Global 
Libertas 

If you look at the first build example - I went for Ryzen 2700X + X470 because I thought that would avoid build problems (it didn't) and risk (it didn't) of using the newer Ryzen 3000 series and X570 motherboards.

I didn't really want to purchase the Ryzen 2700X processor but I needed to do the build and I could not wait. The "AM4 socket upgradable marketing message" was in my head when I went  for that build. 

I have not upgraded from 2700X to any Ryzen 3000 CPU because the increase in IPC was not worth it. I did consider the upgrade though but decided to wait for the next CPU upgrade.

Not that option is not open to me now.

So I am stuck on 2700x CPU or maybe when that CPU dies, I might pick up a Ryzen 3000 series to replace it.

But if next gen AMD CPU shows a big uplift in IPC and performance and core count versus Ryzen 2700x then a CPU replacement is guaranteed purchase.
I cannot be bothered with upgrading that motherboard though because that means full rebuild of the PC.
And I have enough PC builds for myself at the moment.

The second build is gaming build and is using lower cost motherboard and Ryzen 5 3600 with a Wraith Prism RGB cooler.
Really happy with that build and CPU but having the option to upgrade the CPU would be good on that as well.

I forgot to mention - the X470 board was expensive, X570 boards are ridiculously expensive.

t1125p
Journeyman III

AsRock x470:
------------------
- 16 Power Phase design
- Capable of providing extra 300W for CPU
- Supports ASRock Hyper BCLK Engine II
- 256Mb AMI UEFI Legal BIOS with GUI support


AsRock x570:
------------------
- 14 Power Phase design
- Capable of providing extra 300W for CPU
- Supports ASRock Hyper BCLK Engine II
- 256Mb AMI UEFI Legal BIOS with GUI support


Both have the same size BIOS and the x470 has a higher power phase design.
Something ain't right lol. This looks like to me that AMD wants to push their PCI-e 4.0 on the 500 series boards and now make up some BS that Zen3 won't support 400 or even 300 series. They can omit 1000 and 2000 series CPUs for support of Zen3 if that would be the case. That could well indeed work

I have 3 options for me. One: buy the 3900x or 3950x for the final upgrade for my x470 once the prices really come down. Two: buy a x570 or b550 board and a new 4000 series cpu. And finally three: go back to Intel LOL. I mean I like both cpu companies I had my 3770k from 2012-2018 then went to AMD and got a 2700x now using a 3700x. I will wait and see once AMD launches their zen3 cpus and see what Intel has. All I need really is a mobo, and CPU. DDR4 works on both platforms so I'm good there , using Flare X 3200mhz CL14. Either way I'm definitely upgrading something  But still annoyed at AMD for not at least supporting the 400 series one last time. Almost pulled an Intel, though Intel is always doing that crap making us change mobo's when a new cpu launches.

One more thing from MSI: "You want a value-oriented motherboard that’ll support not only the latest AMD releases but will also have you covered for all future AM4 product releases."

MSI's MAX Motherboard Lineup 

"have you covered for all future AM4 product releases" Really now, good job AMD I sure hope there is no legal action against MSI or AMD, because some crazy people might try to sue, they bought these motherboards for future AM4 support beyond Ryzen 3000 and now there is no more upgrade path.

cherullo
Journeyman III

I'm also very pissed at this situation. I got a MSI X470 Gaming Plus during the last Black Friday along with a 3600X.

The cheapest X570 motherboard available around here was 50% more expensive, or around 100USD more.

There was no B550 option available and the consensus was that X470 boards would support future CPUs.

People are now trying to justify AMD's weasel wording, but they were misleading, plain and simple.

sol
Adept II

This actually makes a lot of sense How AMD Sabotages Itself & Both Sides of the Story (B450 / B550 Chipsets & Zen 3 BIOS) - YouTube 
Reach Steve, AMD, and thank him, this guy's doing a community management work for you)

Are we all just "Rabid AMD Fans"?

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Gamers Nexus is criticising AMD focus on Reddit - I agree.

What I don't get is that motherbaord manufacturers (I guess at least MSI) recognised this issue and created boards with 32Mb BIOS ROMS (MAX Series) which they obviously thought would allow support of future CPU's as they stated on the box that this would be the case. So they are aware of the issues and must be happy to support multiple branches of BIOS versions, but AMD have stated they will not give the required microcode to the manufacturers to let them do this !?!

I guess the answer to that question is "above our pay grade", which is zero on this Forum, as far as I know.

I actually corresponded with Steve and he used several links in the video I sent him.

I appreciate his videos always but do not necessarily give AMD the pass that he is semi giving AMD. I get the reasoning and why it is costly and confusing, but they already had that situation with the 450 as it was. Nothing to me trumps the commitment and it is most certainly possible to do with most B450 and X470 boards and Zen 3 processors of equal core count and wattage of the previous gen. Which likely will be most processor except for the very top end. 

I understand that moving forward on a 16mb rom can't support all released processors. This is already the case with B450 boards with 16mb bios. All they had to do is support the new processors that make sense, like same wattage and core count processors. This absolutely CAN BE DONE. I get it it won't be easy or profitable, but the end user isn't the one that said over and over they would be supported.

What I have not seen any video on this topic show is that the AMD page as late as end of 3rd quarter last year said the B450 as well as other previous chipsets is FUTURE-PROOF. So yes the explicitly said it will support the next gen.

So if it just doesn't make sense to have multiple bios which I feel is no big deal and very few that move forward will care about prior support and could always regress in bios if they do anyway.
I do think based on their commitment that the honorable thing is to at least offer a fair rebate for older board owners that other wise may skip Zen3.
I had sent Steve several of the examples he used in this video. Plus he found some I had not seen. HoweverThis is linked from the Ryzen 3000 page and claims that all the products on the page are FUTURE-PROOF. This is from August 15, 2019 well after the release of Zen2 aka Ryzen 3xxx:
https://web.archive.org/web/20190815130654/https://www.amd.com/en/products/chipsets-am4
"AMD Socket AM4 represents the company’s future-proof platform targeting the fastest DDR4 memory, PCIe® 3.0, and NVMe technologies available, as well as the first native USB 3.1 Gen2 support on a chipset. With processor-direct SATA and USB connectivity, configurable for real-world flexibility, the AM4 platform takes advantage of the leading-edge features of today, and tomorrow."
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Thanks for the work you did on this.
I have reponded as much as I can.
Been busy talking with various "Consumer Agencies" about the Gigabyte RX590 REV 1.0 versus REV 2.0 bait and switch scam.
Maybe that experience will prove useful to you.
I hope that is not needed and something is done to support B450/X470 on some boards at least.

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colesdav
MVP

Gamers Nexus is criticising AMD focus on Reddit - I agree.

Hardware Unboxed seem to be unhappy about the 400 Series Motherboard situation for B450 and X470 series owners.
That means me...
 

"Hardware Unboxed seem to be unhappy about the 400 Series Motherboard situation for B450 and X470 series owners.
That means me..."

Yes he is. As he pointed out AMD themselves recommenced the B450 boards as being future proof and just as good as the x570 boards if you don't need PCIe 4.0. 

Some of the hardware sites have not done enough homework and are giving AMD a pass when there is just a ton of evidence that AMD absolutely committed to support of the chipsets not just the socket. 

Fortunately hardware unboxed is not one of those and did a great video. 

Another popular youtube channel and their take on the Zen3 support (or lack there of) issue.

Good Old Gamer:

ANTI Customer = Rewarded with PROFIT! - YouTube 

He sounds really depressed about PC Enthusiast Community not resisting getting ripped off and not being able to resist bad practice by Companies.

I agree and get the sentiment but at the end of the day we really only have a couple choices and if you are itching to buy, most are not going to hold off on principle to punish the company they feel wronged by. I can say though that I will likely skip Zen3 and wait for 4 and a new socket. AMD just cost themselves a sale as it makes no practical reason for me to do an incremental upgrade this year. 

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pokester wrote:

at the end of the day we really only have a couple choices 

that's how i got to amd actually - basically was cornered by nvidia and intel hardcore anti-consumer behavior. I even bought an FX cpu! So if amd and radeon start demonstrating the same behavior, i'm pretty much out of options but second hand market, which i'm cool with. 

Good for me AMD right now is nowhere near those orders of anti-consumer magnitudes as competitors, tho this AM4 debacle makes me nervous a bit. 

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THUNDERSPY – HARDCORE GAMES™ 

Somebody was able to break into a machine via thunderbolt

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Thunderbolt can be used in a "Dirty Nanny" attack to hack into a machine without leaving a trace.

https://wccftech.com/thunderbolt-security-flaw-in-intel-chips-affects-all-compatible-macs-and-pcs/

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I have seen this before.
They had to take the back of the laptop off and perform multiple steps to do the attack.
Well why bother attacking through Thunderbolt when you could rip out the SSD/NVMe Drives, either steal or copy them and walk off.
Once someone can physically get to your laptop like this - forget it.

pastedImage_1.png

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Here's an interesting laptop, though it's not outside Malaysia.

Ryzen 9 3950X

RTX 2070

64GB RAM

2x2TB Samsung NVMe drives

Professionally color calibrated panel

All for the equivalent of $3429.63.

Knock it down to 16GB RAM and 2x1TB NVMe drives, and it drops to $2444.17.

If you go down to the 3700X it drops to $1937.51.

Why can't we get those kind of boutique dealers here...

https://store.illegear.com/ares-series/223-illegear-ares-v.html

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For some reason, I think my previous comment was deleted, so I will re-post it, even if may be slightly out of context.

I bought the B450M MORTAR MAX precisely for the reason that it's BIOS was large enough to accommodate future products. So it pains me (both mentally and financially) to see such a blatant discrepancy in AMD's otherwise great line of products.

I sincerely hope that AMD will take into account user feedback, and adjust course on this one.

I understand. I bought last August when all reviewers were recommending my Tomahawk board and the AMD site was still claiming the B450 to be FUTURE-PROOF.  At the time for 60 bucks more I could have bought a 570 and would have if AMD had either been honest or competent. The jury is out on which one of those is why AMD is not living up to its commitment. To me either way the end user was lied to. I think they should at least offer a decent rebate to older board owners toward a new board.

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A 25% rebate on the price they paid for their 300 and 400 series motherboard to compensate for the fact it will only support 75% of Socket AM4 chips (Ryzen 1000-3000 series) sounds fair to me. I'd love a check for $67.50...

colesdav
MVP

ROG Crosshair Hero VII Motherboard Review I read at the time...
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8612/asus-crosshair-vii-hero-amd-x470-motherboard-review/index4.ht... 
TweakTown Enlarged Image


"We find a 256Mbit BIOS ROM on the motherboard, which is twice the size we find on other X470 motherboards. ASUS says they are using only 16MB of the 32MB ROM, and that the extra space is to ensure future CPU support, in case AMD expands the BIOS size. A BIOS chip is used to facilitate USB BIOS recovery."

And this is what the AMD page said in the same month that review came out. Listing that they are future-proof followed by all the chipsets. Notice not even in the foot not disclaimers does it say anything about these chipsets potentially not being supported in the future. Notice they even spelled out it does not mean graphics won't change so with the absence of any claim of no cpu support. I is only logical to take them at their word that future proof means supporting these chipsets as long as AM4 is supported, as also many times over AMD claimed: AMD Socket AM4 Platform | AMD 

AMD Socket AM4 represents the company’s future-proof platform targeting the fastest DDR4 memory, PCIe® 3.0, and NVMe technologies available, as well as the first native USB 3.1 Gen2 support on a chipset. With processor-direct SATA and USB connectivity, configurable for real-world flexibility, the new AM4 platform takes advantage of the leading-edge features of today, and tomorrow.1,2,3

Socket AM4 X370 Logo

AMD X370 Chipset

Enthusiast class features and control

For overclockers and tweakers who need robust platforms, the AMD X370 chipset offers comprehensive, low-level control and supports dual graphics card configurations thanks to two PCIe® 3.0 graphics card slots. 2,3

Socket AM4 B350 Logo

AMD B350 Chipset

High performance and flexibility

AMD’s B350 Chipset is perfect for power-users who value flexibility and overclocking control, but don’t need the maximum PCIe bandwidth required by multi-GPU configurations.2,3

Socket AM4 A320 Logo

AMD A320 Chipset

Essential computing and media playback

For plug-and-play users who need their PC to “just work”, AMD’s A320 chipset provides a simple, stable platform and more than enough connectivity and bandwidth options to satisfy both demanding home users and media aficionados.

Socket AM4 A300 Logo

AMD X300 and A300 Chipsets

Ideal for the smallest form factors

To satisfy customers who value the smallest form factors, AMD’s X300 and A300 chipsets provide processor-direct access for excellent performance. The enthusiast-oriented X300 chipset is perfect for enthusiasts and overclockers, while the A300 chipset is geared toward practical users who need simple, small solution.2,3

Specifications

CHIPSET FEATURES (EVERY AM4 PROCESSOR IS COMPATIBLE WITH EVERY AM4 CHIPSET)

 CHIPSETPCI EXPRESS® GEN3 GRAPHICS*USB 3.1 G2 + 3.1 G1 + 2.0SATA + NVMESATA EXPRESS* (SATA & GPP PCIE G3*)PCI EXPRESS® GP*SATA RAID**DUAL PCI EXPRESS® SLOTSOVER-CLOCKING***2
EnthusiastX3701x16/2x8 (AMD Ryzen™) 1x8 (A-Series/AMD Athlon™)2+10+66 + x2 NVMe (or 4 SATA plus 1 x4 NVMe on AMD Ryzen™ Processor)2x8 Gen2 (plus x2 PCIe Gen3 when no x4 NVMe)0,1,10YesUnlocked***
PerformanceB3501x16(AMD Ryzen™)1x8 (A-Series/AMD Athlon™)2+6+64 + x2 NVMe (or 2 SATA 1 x4 NVMe on AMD Ryzen™ Processor)1x6 Gen2 (plus x2 PCIe Gen3 when no x4 NVMe)0,1,10NoUnlocked***
MainstreamA3201x16 (AMD Ryzen™) 1x8 (A-Series/AMD Athlon™)1+6+64 + x2 NVMe (or 2 SATA 1 x4 NVMe on AMD Ryzen™ Processor)1x4 Gen2 (plus x2 PCIe Gen3 when no x4 NVMe)0,1,10NoLocked
SFF OptionsX3001x16/2x8 (AMD Ryzen™) 1x8 (A-Series/AMD Athlon™)0+4+02 + x2 NVMe (or 1 x4 NVMe on AMD Ryzen™ Processor)0x4 Gen3 (plus x2 PCIe Gen3 when no x4 NVMe)0,1YesUnlocked***
 A3001x16 (AMD Ryzen™) 1x8 (A-Series/AMD Athlon™)0+4+02 + x2 NVMe (or 1 x4 NVMe on AMD Ryzen™ Processor)0x4 Gen3 (plus x2 PCIe Gen3 when no x4 NVMe)0,1NoLocked

Notes: Features are preliminary and subject to change without notice. Customer should always consult the latest technical documentation for design and product specifications.

*Each SATA Express port functions as either two SATA 3.0 ports or 2 PCI Express® Gen3 lanes. These 2 PCI Express lanes can be combined with 2 general purpose PCI Express to form a 4-lane PCI Express port.

**SATA RAID through optimized driver. Does not include RAID for NVM Express.

***Performance thermal solution required for overclocking.

FOOTNOTES
  1. Statement of "future-proof" refers to support of current and upcoming technology standards including 14nm FinFET process technology, DirectX®12 and Vulkan™ API support, new I/O technology including DDR4, USB 3 .1 Gen 2, and NVMe, and experiences such as VR. "Future-proof" statement is not meant to serve as a warranty or indicate that users will never have to upgrade their graphics technology again. Support of current and upcoming technology standards described above has the potential to reduce frequency of CPU upgrades for some users. GD-1042.
  2. AMD's product warranty does not cover damages caused by overclocking, even when overclocking is enabled via AMD hardware and/or software. GD-26
  3. AMD Ryzen features and benefits depend on system configuration and may require enabled hardware, software or service activation. Performance varies depending on system configuration. Check with your motherboard and system manufacturer.
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And how they changed "EVERY AM4 PROCESSOR IS COMPATIBLE WITH EVERY AM4 CHIPSET". This just screams lawsuit for breach of material promise...

I'd be willing to bet the firm that handled the core count lawsuit successfully is already looking at this. 

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sunbzcut
Journeyman III

I was building a new PC for the first time since Phenom II. I had not had a desk top for several years since the last one died. Wife let me pick out parts for a 15 year anniversary gift and I went with AMD because there seemed to be indications of future upgradeability which specifically appealed to me. 

I went with a MSI B450 Tomahawk max since it was in there post about future compatibility as well. I saw this announcement recently about no future processor support for B450 and now I feel a little salty. I just built this thing earlier this year and now it appears my future upgrade paths I had in mind is a dead end.

Maybe it is my simple-novice-PC mind but, it appears from what I am reading now that B450 is essentially a one processor generation chipset. B550 since it is being released after Ryzen 3000 may essentially also be a single generation chipset for 4000 series. Am I missing something?As a brand that seemed to be marketed as upgradeable with I bios flash this does not seem to be the case.  

I think for novices like me it would be SIMPLER and LESS confusing if you changed the socket or socket name! To a novice like me, the socket tells me what processor I can potentially use. This is how it seemed to me in my limited previous experience. If I see AM4 I think an AM4 processor should work. Even I can understand I may have to flash a bios to get it to work, but it should be capable. In math I learned if both sides of the equal sign match they are equal.  Apparently in AMD world, AM4 ≠ AM4.

Make it less confusing, change the name when you plan to cut support. Just saying, I wouldn’t be so salty if the word then had been next gen processors will use socket “X” instead of next gen processors will use “AM4”.

This was as confusing as when I learned USB 3.0 = USB 3.1 except when USB 3.1 ≠ USB 3.1, because then USB 3.1 > USB 3.0 AMD USB 3.1 because of some GEN thingy.  Yes AMD you just went there.

I was going to build another PC for my wife to use in her office. Please excuse me now as I have RMAs to request.

-Salty Novice

I use high-end power supplies so I tend to rip machines apart to replace motherboards when new models come out that are more useful.

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barracudax01
Journeyman III

I personally think this is a serious 'dick' move by AMD. Basically no diffidence between AMD and INTEL now.

THANK YOU FOR SCREWING UP MY CAREFULLY PLANNED UPGRADE PATH...!!!!

-Pissed off (use to be) fan

Base on history correct. However the new board from Intel will support the next CPU also, so 2 generations. If you buy an AMD board with Zen3 you will only get one generations. 

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pokester wrote:

Base on history correct. However the new board from Intel will support the next CPU also, so 2 generations. If you buy an AMD board with Zen3 you will only get one generations. 

I have been testing video cards and some old cards do not work on my MSI X570-A PRO while they do work on my X470 Gaming Plus. Sure has been eye opening.

X570 & GRAPHICS CARDS – HARDCORE GAMES™ 

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This has actually been reported a lot. Go into your bios and lock the PCIe port to 3.0 not 4.0. That may help. 

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