PC Processors

[cannon_dt]

Hi,

I recently built a 7800x3d system with a msi pro b650p MB. My cooler is a phantom spirit cooler. I do have G.Skill Flare X5 Series 32GB (2 x 16GB) DDR5-6000, so I assume I am good to turn on EXPO. However I have some questions as to how I should go about this:

1. Given that I am in India, the ambient temps are a little high - so I wanted to undervolt to get lower temps. How should I do this? Should I just do PBO->Curve Optimizer and try values from 15 to 30 and settle on what is stable? Is Cinebench good enough to test stability? There is also the manual undervolting method in the BIOS where I set the offset and increment in steps of 0.05. Are both of these the same? 

2. I did turn on EXPO and noticed that the SOC volt was 1.3 which I believe is bad and reduces the life of the CPU. So should I manually set this to 1.2 in the BIOS? Again same stability checks of cinebench is enough?

3. In HWMonitor the volts to monitor come under the MB section and not the CPU section right - I know this is dumb but I am new to all this, so please bear with me.

4. Also for EXPO, is it mandatory to enable Memory Context restore and Power Down Enable?

The reason for this post is that I did the manual undervolt in BIOS (got it to 0.075), switched on EXPO (enabled both memory context and power down), set the values of SOC and VDDIO to 1.2 but windows would not load. Each time after entering the PIN to win 11, I get a forced restart (either windows did not load properly message or an auto restart). So I reset everything in BIOS and made this post to ensure that I am doing things right. So please do advice as to how I should proceed.

Thanks,

Ananth

[Angeluk]

Set the voltage at 1.065 and clock at 5.1ghz. This clock should work just fine for your CPU. If not, play with the settings and find your best. you can test with cinebench until you find the best set for you.

[cannon_dt]

Can you please elaborate? Which voltage are you referring to - SOC or VDDIO? 

What about expo and curve optimizer and how do I set the clock? Like I said, I am new to this so a little hand holding would be great please!

[Angeluk]

Are you using ryzen mater?

[cannon_dt]

Nope! I thought ryzen master was not needed! If needed please do let me know

[misterj]

cannon_dt, RM is needed! See my post. Thanks, John.

[misterj]

cannon_dt, what evidence are you basing your need to under-volt on? Please post it,also please install Ryzen Master (RM) and post a screenshot. What are your local ambient temperatures and why are you concerned about your processor temperature (Max. Operating Temperature (Tjmax) 89°C)?

In general I do not believe any utility other RM and I also believe that the Engineers that design Ryzen are better qualified to set the various parameters.

Thanks and enjoy, John.

[cannon_dt]

In my foray on the internet, it seemed like RM was not needed, nothing against it or anything.

The reason to undervolt - when I log into my system the temps read around 60 as curr value and 71 as max. After a little while at idle, it settles at around 55 - I thought this was due to the high ambient temp and hence thought to get to lower values. When I run cinebench, it breaches 85 and I thought that also is an indicator that it can be controlled. Hence the undervolt exercise

Also I read that undervolting grants higher clocks and thus better performance (read FPS). 

As for EXPO - I have capable RAM, so thought why not. Slightly worse boot times done bother me but I am scared of 1.3 SOC voltage - I need this set up of mine to last a long time, so that is the reason I wanted help on expo.

Both dont seem to want to work for me and hence the need for guidance!

Screenies

BasicAdvanced

[misterj]

cannon_dt, we (you and I) need to be able to read the RM results. Please try attaching the image. I cannot find the Attach icon, so try to upload it to a site you are comfortable with so I can see. Also make sure the RM image is the WHOLE RM screen. What were you using to see VOC? AMD is guaranteeing your processor, so left on their own, they will not set dangerous parameters. Thanks and enjoy, John.

[cannon_dt]

Does this work?

https://ibb.co/cN4TkHD
https://ibb.co/N3Tdpwx

https://ibb.co/m49Rmdx

I was using CPUIDHWMonitor, I am not able to make much sense of HWiNFO64, it just seems to vast for my noob brain

[misterj]

Thanks, cannon_dt. YES those images are great! I tend not to believe to the last one, only RM. The free ones seem to like report garbage numbers, like one I saw reporting processor at 120C which is impossible. Thanks and enjoy, John.

[cannon_dt]

So advice incoming Misterj?

[misterj]

Thanks, cannon_dt. I guess I would say do not use the free applications. Use RM and maybe AIDA64 (Paid app). Please use the method of posting images you used to post the latest RM images. Thanks and enjoy, John.

[cannon_dt]

I was asking for advice regarding my original issue sir!

[misterj]

cannon_dt, I cannot give advice when I do not know what is going on. Please post a Screenshot of RM while running Cinebench. Please pull the slider in RM all the way down so I can see all the parameters. Also do a Clear CMOS before running. Thanks and enjoy, John.

[cannon_dt]

Oops sorry! I did not monitor RM while doing CB. Sorry will do that. 

Unfortunately my MB does not have a CMOS reset button at the back, which means I will have to do a reset via battery right? I am not too comfortable doing that, I am rather clumsy with such things. On the other hand I can reassure you that nothing has been tampered with in the BIOS. I keep detailed notes of everything I do in BIOS and right now all that is changed in the BIOS is the CO under PBO, of that I am certain!

Here are the screenies for RM while running CB (1st is after CB, 2nd is first capture while CB, 3rd is second capture while CB)

https://ibb.co/xGCrMGw
https://ibb.co/D1r73nk
https://ibb.co/Zz0ZgJ4

Of course this was with the CO set at 20 in the BIOS

Another odd thing is that in my RM, I do not have a "Start Optimizing button". See this https://ibb.co/PMHQdgh

[misterj]

Thanks, cannon_dt. All three of the first batch look fine to me. How do your CB scores compare to other 7800x3d? Google can find comparisons. My old Ryzen does not do Curve Optimizing, so can only guess. As I understand it you did CO in your BIOS. This is one reason for Clear CMOS. On the screenshot you posted you are not in PBO. Again I would encourage you to get back to a unmodified BIOS and quit messing in it. Thanks and enjoy, John.

[johnnyenglish]

Hi cannon_dt

1. You can try curve optimizer straight from the BIOS or Ryzen Master, the general advice is to use Ryzen Master since its much more comprehensive and easy, BIOS can have a hard learning curve to some people, although its much more complete for the overall users.


2. SoC voltage is not vCore, so won't directly affect CPU Package temperatures. 1.3v is the cap limit but you can reduce it of course, but be aware that you need to stress test the system to check its stability.
Reducing SoC voltage may increase memory unstability, I run G.Skill 6000 32Gb CL32 with 1,18v vSoC, you can try it out. If it crashes you need to keep tweaking.

3. In the Board section should be the voltage provided, in the CPU what it requests.
Example: The CPU might request a voltage but if i set in BIOS that it should get less, it will get less.
Not sure it is what you asked...

4.  I don't have MCR enabled, My system does not like it enabled. Memory Power Down should help MCR sometimes, depends.

The reason for this post is that I did the manual undervolt in BIOS (got it to 0.075), switched on EXPO (enabled both memory context and power down), set the values of SOC and VDDIO to 1.2 but windows would not load. Each time after entering the PIN to win 11, I get a forced restart (either windows did not load properly message or an auto restart). So I reset everything in BIOS and made this post to ensure that I am doing things right. So please do advice as to how I should proceed.

R: Manual values on the vCore is not great unless for ALL Core OC, if you want to use PBO then vCore should be an offset value not manual, this way it will crash because you are using a fixed value all around.
Example: in my 7950X I have curve optimizer and -0.075v Offset. Meaning, any give time the CPU requests X voltage, the board will take 0.075v from the equation.



My sugesstion, start clean first, reset CMOS and try curve optimizer, then when its stable enough, go after SoC voltage and others. Step by Step. Always stress test the system to ensure its stable.

Good Luck

[cannon_dt]

Thanks The Englishman for the detailed response, please see below

1. One weird thing is I have PBO in 2 parts of the BIOS - one under Setting->Adv CPU config and other under OC settings. What I did was in the latter and when I did F10, it said no changes to BIOS. So I am wondering if I even did it. Are you aware of this issue - should I use the former? I will learn how to use CO in RM and try that too

2. In another thread where you had replied (https://community.amd.com/t5/processors/cpu-core-cpu-soc-voltage-difference/m-p/615253), you have provided links to 2 videos - one was a short for using CO and the other was the SOC tweak. You had said that it is correct to turn on EXPO and then change the SoC volts so that it is not a constant 1.3. That is what I was trying with 1.2 but was causing win 11 to not even load.

3. I meant that the voltages (SoC) was coming in 2 places - MB and CPU - now your clarification makes sense and was a Duh moment! I need to monitor the MB value only to make sure it is within acceptable limits

4. Some thread somewhere said that EXPO works best only with these 2 enabled - how do you know your sys doesnt like it?

Also my 0.075 is offset only. In fact before I did any PBO all I did was set the offset to .075 (-) and system was fine. This is after which I tried expo and all went to s**t

Last question - a cinebench is not stress test enough, can you tell me what is the ideal way to stress test? Just curious - I am using this set up for pure gaming (and some light dev work) - so all I strive for is lower temps and best FPS possible, just to set context!

Thanks

Ananth

[johnnyenglish]

Hi, glad I could help.

1. Its normal, even my has two locations, i guess they could be shortcuts, I don't know... I use the PBO in the Advanced Settings.

2. Not everyone can get the same values, if you are facing issues with 1.2 on SoC voltages with EXPO enabled, then leave it at AUTO. As long as its bellow 1.3v should be ok. 

Exemple of ASUS 1.3 CAP Limit

3.    :  -  )

4. My System with MCR enabled gives me super fast boot times and crashes at windows loging into BSOD, if I enable Memory Power Down, no longer crashes and i get a slight improvement in boot times, however, system is not 100% stable as well. So I keep MCR disabled with 21secs to boot. Super OK for me and Super Stable so far.

Last Question:

Throw everything you got at it, cinebench, heaven, OCCT, memtest86, furmark, gaming, heavy rendering... Everything!

I can say now I haven't experienced a crash in MONTHS! Its a "bad habit" lol

[cannon_dt]

1. Thanks, I will use the advanced settings too and RM to see the effects on temp

2. With EXPO enabled, SOC is at constant 1.3, hence the fear. It never goes below 1.3. Maybe 1.25 SOC should be hard set?

4. Ohhhh, so that could explain my Win 11 login issues too. So I will try expo with nothing enabled and see. Slower boot times are absolutely fine by me.

So I will have to learn how to run these benchmarks. I have never even heard of anything - so far all I do is Cinebench and gaming. Simple minds!

So let me know if this order of steps is fine

1. CO (either with RM or adv settings) followed by benchmark. Start at 15 or so and keep increasing until crash

2. EXPO turn on (this has nothing to do with CO right?). Set VDDIO and SOC to 1.25. Stress test. 

Does this sound like a good plan?

Thanks,

Ananth 

[cannon_dt]

@johnnyenglish 

Weirdly enough when I use the CO under OC, the BIOS saw the changes while save/reboot. So I assume that my original attempts were bust because of this. Another odd thing is that in my RM, I do not have a "Start Optimizing button". See this https://ibb.co/PMHQdgh

So I did it via the BIOS - started at 15, CB and OCCT went well. Went to 20 again both passed. And now the temps seem better for sure!

One thing I do not understand is that in CB testing for CO 15 I got max temp as 80 whereas at CO 20 I got it as 81.5 - does this mean anything - isnt it supposed to further decrease as I increate the CO value? So I stopped at that before I got to 25 to check in here. Do let me know if that makes sense.

Also one other question I have is - in addition to CO, does it make sense to make another offset at the voltage setting at 0.05? That was stable for me without CO - does doing both further decrease volts/temps?

Also, with all this CO and undervolt, if I turn on EXPO can I expect SOC to not hit 1.3 - I mean are these even related is my question?

Thanks,

Ananth

[johnnyenglish]

Hi there, here are the replies

"One thing I do not understand is that in CB testing for CO 15 I got max temp as 80 whereas at CO 20 I got it as 81.5 - does this mean anything - isnt it supposed to further decrease as I increate the CO value? So I stopped at that before I got to 25 to check in here. Do let me know if that makes sense."


- I found that Curve Optimizer doesn't work the same for everyone, not sure why but for now, due to a lack of better explanation, lets call it silicon variance. 
Remember that if you have more temperature headroom to boost, the CPU will do it to increase performance. Hence sometimes higher temps.

"Also one other question I have is - in addition to CO, does it make sense to make another offset at the voltage setting at 0.05? That was stable for me without CO - does doing both further decrease volts/temps?"

- I couldn't get -30 on CO, so in order to further down the temperatures i used negative offset  voltages. Both settings undervolt the CPU but they act different. If you are happy with the results from CO, there might be little advantage to further decrease vCore, especially if it makes your system unstable.

"Also, with all this CO and undervolt, if I turn on EXPO can I expect SOC to not hit 1.3 - I mean are these even related is my question?"

- Its not related, SoC voltage affects EXPO/DOCP/XMP stability.
Example: In my older system, a 2700X, i had to increase SoC voltage to achieve a stable 3200Mhz

[cannon_dt]

Final question sir (hopefully!)

How dangerous is a constant SOC of 1.3? 1.2 was not stable enough for me, I am yet to try 1.25 but if I am stuck with 1.3, is that ok? Also does reducing DRAM frequency from 6000 to 5600 or 5200 help with the SOC voltage?

Thanks,

Ananth

[johnnyenglish]

Its not dangerous, the problem with SoC voltage is solved now.

One of the problems was... AUTO settings on older BIOS was increasing the value to over 1,45v which was not good.

If your auto sets at 1,3v you should be just fine.

[cannon_dt]

Thanks @johnnyenglish 

I remember your answers in some other threads where you said that it had to be below 1.3, hence the fear (I think the video I linked below was from one of your posts too!). I checked that my BIOS version is 3 versions above the one where MSI fixed the SoC, so I suppose I am in the clear.

Just another small update - CO at 25 failed occt. 20 passed occt several times and also during light loads there was no unncessary restarts etc. So I think that is the sweet spot, I am slowly getting more tests done. However my heaven benchmarks seem low (thought I am not really sure) - let me know if the below is sub par

FPS:110.6

Score:2787

Min FPS:35.4

Max FPS:379.0

I did with D3D11, custom preset, ultra quality, tessellation disabled and anti aliasing off - I am not sure what are the test conditions. Still reading up on how to actually use these tools

Also, I got the demo of 3d mark off of steam but the **bleep** thing wont run. It is stuck forever at Collecting System Info

Ananth

[misterj]

cannon_dt, where are you changing SOC voltage and why? The SOC (System On a Chip) is an embedded processor that AMD uses to manage the Ryzen. I do not know why you are messing with the voltage and it really should be left alone. How are you changing it? Post a screenshot showing SOC voltage setting. I suggested some time ago in an AMD support request about changing my SOC voltage on my 3970X to try to cure an missing memory channel and got a very strong warning from AMD about voiding my warranty. My problem turned out to be a really bad MB - all my problems went away when I finally got the latest version of my MB. Enjoy, John.

EDIT: Please read the RM Users Guide for information on the SOC.

[cannon_dt]

I am fiddling with SoC voltage because of EXPO. When I turn on EXPO, the SoC voltage was 1.3 which I suppose was deemed dangerous. (as posted elsewhere on this forum https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF76fdyx6fs)

In the BIOS, under OC setting, if you turn on Expert mode, there are 2 voltage settings - SoC and VDDIO/MC - I changed these values manually as mentioned in the video above. This was under the assumption that a constant 1.3 is going to reduce the life of my CPU. Also the reason why I never turned on EXPO. But as per @johnnyenglish above 1.3 is fine which is what my Auto seems to set it at (I am on v17 BIOS which is version above where the MSI site says the soc is fixed)

If you still need screenies I can do that with a camera, do let me know

Ananth

[misterj]

cannon_dt, Thanks. I urge you to open an AMD Support Request and ask them about SOC voltages. I suspect some modifications have taken hold since I was messing seriously with these things. Thanks and enjoy, John.

[johnnyenglish]

The video served as a "mild" warning but the situation is now long gone and corrected.

Always follow the instrutions provided by the boards vendor, hence my image snip above from ASUS website.

There are still some people out there with older BIOS running SoC way above 1.3v which was set the limit for most vendors.

If the SoC voltage is inside the limit set by the board vendor I see no problem, however, tweakers will always tweak and undervolting techniques are safe, overvolting on the other side may/can lead to premature failure.

Last advice, if anyone is uncomfortable about tweaking the rig, then you should avoid doing so.

Good Luck

[cannon_dt]

@johnnyenglish 

Latest news. After running multiple stress test (heaven, CB, prime95, occt) I thought I had arrived at a stable set up. But since today morning, I kept getting BSOD with a forced restart. Each time I did a sfc and a dsim with each reporting all is well but was followed up by unpredictable restarts. Upon reading I found that overclocking could be a possible culprit and when I did a mem diag tool test (which is baked into win11) it resulted in "hardware problems were detected". 

Immediately I rolled back the Soc and VDDIO voltage changes and did a mem diag again and this time there we no errors. Also no BSOD for the past 8 hours or so. SFC is also happy. So currently I am with the following

1. CO at -20 for all cores

2. EXPO on (no power down and mcr enabled)

I am seeing a max soc of 1.308 and max VDDIO of 1.344. 

What do you think? Should I turn off expo?

@misterj 

I raised a support request giving them all details about my PC and their reply was rather distasteful. The engineer mentioned that if I am turning on EXPO then that is tantamount to OC, so no warranty etc etc. Maybe I am not well informed enough but why should we spend on RAM if the MB/CPU manufacturers are merely going to wash their hands off support. I have furnished further information to them and awaiting further feedback but I suspect they would ask me to go back to stock (no EXPO). Not a very bright future I see with this line of inquiry

Ananth

[misterj]

Thanks, Ananth this is not cool. Does RM issue a warning on enabling EXPO? If you are using BIOS, please try RM. I would do some testing but my Ryzen is too old (3970X) and does not have the EXPO  option. I would like to see your BSOD Minidumps. Go to C:\Windows\Minidump and if it contains files from your latest BSODs, please host them somewhere so I can see them. You can compress them first. Thanks and enjoy, John.

EDIT: Found this via Google:

"On top of all this, many are still surprised to learn that enabling Intel XMP or AMD EXPO profiles to match the advertised speeds on their new RAM technically voids their CPU warranty.May 7, 2023"

[cannon_dt]

@misterj 

I am yet to try expo with RM, in fact with EXPO on in BIOS my RM reports like it wasnt, it says it is off. Tomorrow I will disable expo in BIOS and do it in RM and let you know. Here is the a file share of all my minidumps

https://file.io/10pDZMR3VbXI

Let me know if that works. I would like to be able to delete it once you get it, so do let me know

And yeah, I am one of the many I suppose

Ananth

[misterj]

cannon_dt, thanks. I DLed the dumps and opened one, so you can scratch the files. Let me know about EXPO and RM. Thanks and enjoy, John.

[cannon_dt]

I will do EXPO in RM today and let you know, meanwhile take a look at this absolutely irrelevant and nonsensical reply from AMD support to my voltages questions (after sending them msinfo and dxdiag information)

QUOTE

Thank you for your email.
To get your system into standard configuration please follow the below steps.
1.I request you to make sure you have updated your motherboard bios version to the latest available version.
https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/PRO-B650-P-WIFI/support
Note: It is always recommended to follow the instructions provided by your system manufacture in the user Manuel or contact your system manufacture support for updating the BIOS and resetting BIOS’s at default settings.

2.I request you to make sure you are running run all hardware components at their default factory settings.
This would include the processor, graphics card and system memory.
Processor and system memory changes can be reset to factory default settings in the motherboard bios.
For instructions on how to reset your motherboard BIOS to default settings, please refer to your motherboard manual or system documentation.

3. I request you to please perform the clean boot and check the issue status.
Please refer the below link to know how to perform clean boot.
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/how-to-perform-a-clean-boot-in-windows-da2f9573-6eec-00ad-...   

UNQUOTE

What does this even have to do with what I raised the ticket for?

Ananth

[misterj]

cannon_dt, I have stared at your posted minidumps without any real conclusion. Have you tried a clean boot? As usual, I would encourage you to stop fooling around in BIOS until we get a hand on your crashes. Thanks and enjoy, John.

[misterj]

cannon_dt, I have stared at your posted minidumps without any real conclusion. Have you tried a clean boot? As usual, I would encourage you to stop fooling around in BIOS until we get a hand on your crashes. Thanks and enjoy, John.

[misterj]

cannon_dt, I have stared at your posted minidumps without any real conclusion. Have you tried a clean boot? As usual, I would encourage you to stop fooling around in BIOS until we get a hand on your crashes. Thanks and enjoy, John.

[misterj]

cannon_dt, I have stared at your posted minidumps without any real conclusion. Have you tried a clean boot? As usual, I would encourage you to stop fooling around in BIOS until we get a hand on your crashes. Thanks and enjoy, John.

[misterj]

cannon_dt, I have stared at your posted minidumps without any real conclusion. Have you tried a clean boot? As usual, I would encourage you to stop fooling around in BIOS until we get a hand on your crashes. Thanks and enjoy, John.