Off Topic Discussions

[petosiris]

Hi guys,

I was about to buy a new AMD graphic card but the prices are still high.  Availability has stabilized in the market and prices are better in North America, sometimes down to MSRP or even lower, but not here in my country.  Actually, the price difference is so much that a plane ticket to the U.S. and back would be worth it and I'd still save money.

Today I read an article about how AMD's main competitor thinks: NVIDIA Can Counter AMD With GeForce RTX 40 GPU Price Cuts At Any Time But In No Hurry

Quote from the article:
"NVIDIA will finally decide if the price cut on the RTX 40 series cards is warranted or not. In the case that AMD fails to impress gamers with its new mainstream options, consumers will end up buying the RTX 4060 and RTX 4070 cards in masses which is when NVIDIA might likely start increasing supply to AIBs."

They're saying that supplies to AIBs are held back from the manufacturer to upheld prices and let their partners sell out their stock of older cards (3000 series).  I don't buy that explanation completely.  I think they're maintaining high prices mainly because they can, since the competition is low.  Not that AMD cards are worse but the competitor seem to sell more GPUs anyway because customers prefer their brand.

What do you think?

[johnnyenglish]

GPU market is still in a pickle, "luckily", here in Portugal more than stabilized, it just plummeted in February and  now you can see RX6800 starting at 500€, RX6900 starting at 650€ (and still falling)

If demand was high during cryptos, now demand is extremely low as the country sinks to a level where 22% of the people don't even have enough money to give their kids a decent meal ☹️

My advise is:

Have a clear direction of what you will be doing.
Need the power of a 7900XT(X)? Its a no brainer as You can't beat it for what it delivers and I think they'll be at 799 MSRP soon.

Tight Budget? How much tight?
Enough for 1440p high refresh rates or 4K?
There is nothing wrong with a RX6800/RX6900/RX6950 and you can even go after used, open box, refurbished deals. I got one from Open Box with 2 year warranty from Amazon, in fact, apart from a damaged box, everything was new and even had the plastic peel on. Paid 770ish instead of 1100 during the GPU crisis.

If the RDNA2 looks wrong for you, maybe you should wait for a 7800XT 

[petosiris]

---

@johnnyenglish wrote:

GPU market is still in a pickle, "luckily", here in Portugal more than stabilized, it just plummeted in February and  now you can see RX6800 starting at 500€, RX6900 starting at 650€ (and still falling)

---

It's one country in Europe where prices have gone down then.  Here in Norway they're still high.  I suspect that resellers here are milking the market and simply blame inflation.  Below are some prices on AMD's 7900 XTX today, sorted on price (1 NOK = 0,087 €uro).  The card I want isn't on this list but I found it at a reseller anyway.

Prices for Radeon RX 7900 XTX

---

If demand was high during cryptos, now demand is extremely low as the country sinks to a level where 22% of the people don't even have enough money to give their kids a decent meal ☹️

---

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. 🥺  Some Norwegians are poor too — primarily because the government think fees are just like other taxes, even if they're flat and the poor pays relatively more — but the majority are better off.

---

Need the power of a 7900XT(X)? Its a no brainer as You can't beat it for what it delivers and I think they'll be at 799 MSRP soon.

---

I'm saving up for the top Radeon RX xxxx XTX.  If it's going to be 7900 XTX, 7950 XTX (if/when it arrives) or 8900 XTX is not decided yet.  It depends on when I've saved up enough to buy.  But I'm in no hurry to buy and I'd rather save up for the best than buy something cheaper now.

So far this one is my favorite.  It costs NOK 18.490,00 (€1.609,00) here at the moment:

You see what I mean?  The MSRP of the XTX is $999 and €999, right?  So why are GPUs so much more expensive here?  It makes no sense to me.  Unless the importers/distributors and resellers are milking the market.  Norwegians are known to accept (almost) anything. 😅

[Axxemann]

If you're looking at a 60% markup, maybe hopping a flight to Germany or somewhere in the Eurozone might be beneficial for the cost savings on a GPU? Take the better half with you and make it a weekend getaway?

Here in Canada, our component prices are still pretty screwy. Not only can you expect the exchange rate of $1CAD = $0.72USD, but the extra markups, too. A $500USD RX6800XT goes for between $900-1200CAD depending on the vendor.

If you like taking your chances and are patient, keep plugging away at the monthly giveaways. You might get lucky. 

[petosiris]

---

@Axxemann wrote:

If you're looking at a 60% markup, maybe hopping a flight to Germany or somewhere in the Eurozone might be beneficial for the cost savings on a GPU? Take the better half with you and make it a weekend getaway?

Good idea, but I haven't had time to research the prices in Germany and elsewhere in Europe yet.  Besides, I must save up money for the GPU first.  I was planning a trip to Germany anyway soon because I need to dig in additional archives for tracks of my grandfather's destiny in WWII.  I know most of it, but I'd like to research some more details.  Besides, I love the German "dunkel bier" (dark beer) and Prezels! 🙂 I fell in love with that combination when my wife and I were in Munich in 2013.

My better half is sadly not with me anymore, she died over 5 years ago from cancer, but maybe I can find some other travel company. 😉

---

If you like taking your chances and are patient, keep plugging away at the monthly giveaways. You might get lucky. 

---

I wish.  They're only for North American team members, because AMD can only send prizes to U.S. and Canada.

[Axxemann]

---

@petosiris wrote:

---

My better half is sadly not with me anymore, she died over 5 years ago from cancer, but maybe I can find some other travel company. 😉

---

---

Sorry to hear that, dude. I've got some choice expletives for cancer. 

---

---

I wish.  They're only for North American team members, because AMD can only send prizes to U.S. and Canada.

---

I'm sure there are other ways. But I'm not the guy who hands out the prizes around here. 😉

[petosiris]

---

@Axxemann wrote:

---

---

I'm sure there are other ways. But I'm not the guy who hands out the prizes around here. 😉

---

I did win a game code for EverSpace 2!  So I'm happy. 😁

[Axxemann]

It's a start!

[pawelurlich]

At that rate it will take 1 or 2 more generations to MRSP hit the roof so bad that you'll be able to buy all 3 consoles in price of single top GPU. 
MOBOs prices are lowering but would be lovely to see their dropping at the rate of DDR5.

[petosiris]

---

@pawelurlich wrote:

At that rate it will take 1 or 2 more generations to MRSP hit the roof so bad that you'll be able to buy all 3 consoles in price of single top GPU. 

There are many reasons for rising GPU prices and also other computer parts, like CPUs.  From the top of my head I'll mention a few major reasons:

• Shrinking production nodes.  A 5nm wafer is more costly to produce than a 7nm wafer.
• Speed competition.  When speed increases then supporting components, such as power regulators and capacitors, often requires better quality and also more of them.  Quality components cost more.
• Market volatility.  One year the products are selling like hotcakes and availability is low, next year consumer demands are low but the manufacturers have ordered more wafers from the foundry and increased production to avoid the low availability from the previous year.  This results in overproduction and high costs when products are just piling up in the warehouses and stores.
• Lack of market competition.  If consumers prefer one manufacturer over another, because of presumed better products or simply brand trust, that manufacturer can raise their prices.

About consoles, I've never owned or used a console.  The nearest I've been is peeking over a shoulder of someone playing a console game I really wasn't interested in.  😅

[Sitaza]

We like it or not theres a huge gap between upscaling solution ( DLSS + Frame Generation and FSR 2 ) and that is why NVIDIA keep prices up. If you add to that the better ray tracing performance there you go. NVIDIA was never consumer friendly .. they pushed to be by AMD again and again like it happened in the past. You remember the absurd Gsync monitor prices at first ? It took some time for AMD to catch up with Freesync and make Gsync monitors way cheaper. 

I agree with you NVIDIA doesnt care as much. They selling 30 line while they have locked DLSS 3.0 + Frame generation behind 40series to make them look premium choices with no answer from AMD. Yes when you compare raw performances AMD cards make much more sense but all that without using upscaling solutions. Frame generation might be a gimmick fake frame generator but it works really good i would say. Those are free frames which translates at even higher performance, even if its "fake" performance .. still.

AMD needs to catch up with upscaling and provide a solid frame generator as well so they can be more competitive and prices will go down that way. Its the only way in my opinion

[Axxemann]

---

@Sitaza wrote:

Frame generation might be a gimmick fake frame generator but it works really good i would say. Those are free frames which translates at even higher performance, even if its "fake" performance .. still.

---

As the gearheads would say: There's no replacement for displacement. You can't slap enough turbos and nitrous on a 1.5L I4 from a Honda Civic and expect it to last more than 30 seconds cranking out 1000hp. You can build a 572 Chevy Big Block to do it and last a whole day of racing. I'll take raster performance over RT and AI frame generation any day of the week. 

[Sitaza]

Sadly is not what you or i prefer but what majority of gamers do. You can downplay RT or PT or DLSS but that is the future of gaming. Did you see Cyberpunk Path tracing ? Jaw dropping. Only playable with 4090 because of DLSS 3.0 + Frame generator. Thats what i call performance. Because if you want to see Pretty you need performance nowdays. And theres nothing more pretty than Path tracing. IF you dont beleive me go check Cyberpunk Path tracing on youtube.

Thats what AMD needs to aim for. To challenge that and i hope they do with FSR 3.0. 

[Axxemann]

I saw the reviews. I wasn't really impressed. TBH, I never have and most likely never will play Cyberpunk, and RT does nothing for me. The only time I can see myself considering RT is if I go back to flight sims, and there I'd expect the RT to accurately portray glare where I need to wear polarized sunglasses, just like I did when I was last in a real airplane shooting patterns with my bush pilot buddy.

And take a look at my sig line again. Performance comes first. Pretty comes a very distant second. I'm not afraid of turning settings down to get better performance. I only have everything maxed out these days because I'm locked to 1080p72Hz until I get a new monitor and my 6800XT is an absolute overmatch. I'd probably overmatch 1080p240Hz, and run up against frame caps on the game engines, so I'm looking at 1440p165Hz+. I'll lower settings until I'm hitting the monitor's refresh limit, just like I always have. I'm also dead-set against Fake Frame Generation.

[mnm1298]

You may prefer performance over pretty and so may a lot of other folks. But me, I'm the other way 'round. I do have a 3090 FE because AMD stock couldn't keep up and my Radeon 7's weren't doing what I needed any longer.  I also play CP2077 at max settings with DLSS and RT cranked to max. My ROG monitors are 165hz Freesync Premium and I'll gladly dip from the typical 80-or-so fps into the high 50's low 60's (momentarily) to keep things pretty without even considering dropping any of the settings.  I think that's probably the vast majority of us and that's what nvidia is counting on.

PT is pretty interesting and Steve (@GN) did a deep dive into it's affect on the game and while there where places where it made a mild difference, I couldn't see it, especially at full game speed.  For perspective my 3090 FE set to quality everything at 1440 averages 70-90 fps in CP2077 but with PT it "dips" down to 6-9 fps.  So even with 64gb of Cl16, 3600 ram with a 5950x setting in a ROG Dark Hero, the PT absolutely killed the game.

I don't know how many are using PT in CP2077 for its quality difference compared to those who run it "because they can."  But I assume PT is the new future and we'll start seeing it offered on new games and patches...because people like cool sparkly eye candy and the realism it brings rather than the cartoonish look when everything is set to faster performance rather than quality.

Based on what I've seen, granted it is only a very small piece of the overall pie, I believe your signature statement puts you in the minority.

[petosiris]

---

@mnm1298 wrote:

PT is pretty interesting [...]

---

Can you clarify what you mean by "PT"? I googled it and found at least 3-4 different possible meanings related to gaming.

As for myself, I've only this year invested in a 4K display, because I want to run some games in 4K — only.  Until the last two generations of GPUs I feel it hasn't been practical to play in 4K at all because of too low framerates in that resolution.  Actually, I don't think the current generation is quite there yet either.  One game I'm playing is extremely demanding of the hardware and when playing it in 4K one typically only get 40-60 frames per second (FpS) — at max.  I want  at least the double of that speed in 4K.  The optimal would be the FpS matching my native display refresh rate, which is 144 Hz.

I'm willing to pay for getting the speed I want in 4K, within reasonable limits.  But it must be with an AMD GPU, not with the green competitor.  I'm happy to wait for the next gen. GPU from AMD if I have to. 🙂

[Axxemann]

I think @mnm1298 is referring to Path Tracing with PT.

[petosiris]

---

@Axxemann wrote:

I think @mnm1298 is referring to Path Tracing with PT.

---

I see.  I got an overview of what that is here:

[mnm1298]

Correct.  PT = Path Tracing.  If I remember correct (in regards to nVidia RT specifically) the ray tracing required ~30'ish calculations per pixel whereas PT requires upwards of 600 calculations per pixel.

To me, the PT is way too demanding and not much payback (e.g., eye candy) even in CP2077, and I'm sure other studios are working on other implementations of it.  If you review Steve's work at GN and even Linus you can't tell the difference (or at least I can't) between RT and PT other than the requirement of the 4090.  And based on nVidia's scalping I refuse to buy any more of their cards.  I have always purchased AMD cpus and ATI graphics regardless of the performance hit because I like to support the "little guy" and help build a good company to a great one (through supporting their products) as well as keeping Team Blue on their toes in relation to pricing...but it doesn't always shake out that way.

I was truly hoping to score a 6900/XT last generation, but the 3090 is all I could find at the time so that's what I bought.  I can't say I've been disappointed, but I wish I could have stayed with AMD.

I almost pulled the trigger on a Crosshair x670 and a 7950x3D just to see how it performed compared to my 5950x, but this thing is a workhorse and hasn't disappointed and with all the issues that happen with new platforms I'm glad I waited a bit.  I did jump onto the 1800x a few days after it launched and was very happy compared to my Bulldozer, but there were still teething issues along the way...but now that we're at the end of AM4 I can't find a reason to drop the $ to upgrade to AM5 quite yet.

But back to GPUs.  I still think nVidia has some real work to do to make their products affordable and quit artificially limiting their capabilities.  And AMD needs some help catching up.  I do enjoy knowing a strong majority of the AMD technologies are open-sourced which I think will help with adoption rates (or so I hope) and truly hope AMD can really make up some ground in their GPU performance space.

[petosiris]

---

@mnm1298 wrote:

I do enjoy knowing a strong majority of the AMD technologies are open-sourced which I think will help with adoption rates (or so I hope)

---

Yes, the Open-Source initiatives from AMD is one of the things that makes them stand out vs the competition and one of the reasons I choose AMD.  The green giant seems to always do the complete opposite — making new proprietary closed "standards" that's meant to lock-in customers and game studios with their "standards". 

It reminds me of how Microsoft made their own non-standard web browser with ActiveX, made proprietary document formats for Word, Excel, and many other things that locked customers into their world and made customers dependent of their software, upto a decade+ or so ago.  Companies and end users happily went along this Microsoft path and didn't knew it lead out off a cliff in the end.  It almost destroyed the whole Internet web browser and document exchange industry, IMO.  Still today some companies are totally dependent on their vast in-house libraries of ActiveX routines tied to the ancient Internet Explorer.  It's hard for many to get out of the trap because they've invested so much money and resources in the tech.

Yes, the green GPU giant makes good products and many end users want the fastest and best, of course (some even have the money to buy the very best), so they go happily down this path, together with game studios that invest heavily in these new "standards". 

I truly hope history don't repeat itself, but I fear it does.  Closed "standards" have never led to anything good.

---

@mnm1298 wrote:

[...] and truly hope AMD can really make up some ground in their GPU performance space.

---

I've heard some rumors ... which I can't repeat here, but I think we have something to look forward to in AMD's next gen. GPUs. 🙂

[petosiris]

@Sitaza wrote:

AMD needs to catch up with upscaling and provide a solid frame generator as well so they can be more competitive and prices will go down that way. Its the only way in my opinion

---

---

Thats what AMD needs to aim for. To challenge that and i hope they do with FSR 3.0. 

Yes, I agree.  Let's se how the FSR 3 and the next gen. of GPUs can do.

I do believe gamers in general are somewhat narrow-minded when they choose a manufacturer which always make new inventions proprietary and try to set standards on their own terms with that, compared to AMD which usually makes theirs Open Source and available for all - even competitors.  AMD is the only one that tries to make wide and open standards, the competitor tries to own the market with closed and proprietary tech and bind customers to their hardware.

[petosiris]

Videocardz reports: 

AMD Radeon RX 7900 XT now available for $762

Yeah, great -- if you live in North America.

At the outer rim of civilization, where I live, the prices on RX 7900XT are like this:

Divide the prices by 10 to get approx. US Dollars.   So the cheapest RX 7900 XT here cost over $1,100!

[Axxemann]

Let me fix your initial statement: 7900XT is under $800 if you live in the USA. It's still averaging $1250 in Canada.

[petosiris]

OK, noted.  Isn't that strange though?  One should think that Canada is roughly the same market as USA on GPUs.

[Axxemann]

Nope. Our dollar is worthless by comparison. We have 1/10 the population scattered across the second largest country on the planet.

[Brian-Emmons]

still using Vega 64 cards as most of what I do is 3D slicing and rendering and all modern cards are way to expensive for what I need.

[kaarelraimond]

We've got computex in 1 week or so. Wait for it. There will be releases of "60s" which are "50s". Those cards maybe would be playable in FHD and that's it. Anything below will be nongaming no matter how you'd like to turn tables around (DLSS of FG).
After month or so of "not selling" DoA (Dead on Arrival) 8 gig cards I belive prices should drop a little bit of higher models.

If you don't really need right now then time is money.

[petosiris]

AMD Radeon RX 7900 XT gets a 24% price cut in Europe, now available for €799 at Mindfactory in Germany

"In the US, the AMD Radeon RTX 7900 XT graphics card dropped to $762 in April and is further expected to fall."

"The fading demand for GPUs and solid competition from NVIDIA is the leading cause of this price decline. However, with its current pricing, the AMD Radeon RX 7900 XT is the top option for gamers looking to buy a GPU under $1000."

More: https://wccf.tech/1c16b

Source: Wccftech

[petosiris]

AMD Radeon RX 7900 XTX price drops below $900 US and 7900 XT available for $719 at Amazon

"The AMD Radeon RX 7900 XTX & RX 7900 XT definitely offer better value than the NVIDIA GeForce RTX 40 competition out there and to further heighten their value, retailers across the globe have been offering some amazing promos and discounts on both cards. Last time, we saw the Radeon RX 7900 XTX hit $949 US pricing and the RX 7900 XT dropped below 800 Euros but the latest price cuts are even better."

"For European residents, the standard Radeon RX 7900 XTX can be found for as low as £749. Following are the links to all the product pages to make things easier for you:

• Sapphire Radeon RX 7900 XTX PULSE - $899.99 US (Amazon)
• XFX Radeon RX 7900 XTX MERC 310 - $881.99 US (Amazon)
• Sapphire Radeon RX 7900 XT PULSE - $719.99 US (Amazon)"

More: https://wccf.tech/1c4f1

Source: Wccftech

But in my country, Norway, Scandinavia, the cheapest XTX card is PowerColor 7900 XTX Hellhound at NOK 12.990 ($1,230 US) and the cheapest XT card is XFX 7900 XT Speedster MERC310 Ultra at NOK 10.658 ($1,009 US).  We don't have a local Amazon shop in Norway anyway, so if we want the Amazon discounts then we must import them -- with what that means of shipping costs, import tax, VAT of 25% on all that, and duty fees on top.

So I have to wait a few more months until prices are more normal here.

[BigAl01]

I now have two of the RX 7900XT video cards in two of my gaming computers and they run very well.  I highly recommend this video card.

[Davidnasa]

It's possible that both supply constraints and strategic pricing decisions play a role in the current pricing of GPUs. While it's true that supply shortages can lead to higher prices due to increased demand and limited availability, it's also worth considering the competitive landscape.

[petosiris]

Yes, I agree with that, @Davidnasa.  The market is small in my country, compared to in the U.S. and other places, so strategic pricing is very possible.  Besides, we Norwegians are known to pay almost any price without complaining.  Swedes are not like us in that respect so businesses have different prices for Swedes and Norwegians because they know we pay more.  😅

@BigAl01, I'm contemplating if I shall go for the RX 7900 XTX or wait for the next gen. AMD GPUs.  It's also a money question, of course.  A 7900 XTX here costs from ca. $1,200 to the water cooled card I have my eyes on, which costs ca. $1,800.

[afchopstick23]

Man it's crazy it goes down some and then gets stuck at that price forever and then it goes down slightly lol