Off Topic Discussions

[falloutboy]

O.K AMD it has come to my attention that a game you are sponsoring is going to be an exclusively FSR title.

It has also come to my attention that you have been asked to comment as to your policy around developers who are developing these titles as to if they have been told not to implement DLSS in these titles and to keep it as exclusively FSR.

nVidia has responded that "they in no way impinge on developers abilities to add alternate rendering systems regardless of sponsorship", your response thus far has been "No Comment" , not even a we are preparing a statement and this in itself is very damning.

You needn't think that this will just die a natural death because I for one am asking about it everywhere I can and until AMD which is in my opinion is blocking DLSS on these titles fesses up and undoes what they are doing I will keep pushing as this behavior is anti competition and anti gamer.

If FSR cant stand side by side with DLSS and let the user decide what is best then FSR needs to die.

[johnnyenglish]

Why don't nvidia rolls out some sort of DLSS for everyone to use? I mean, if a game does not have FSR but does have DLSS, AMD card owners can just use third party software to upscale it anyway. 

 

[falloutboy]

That is not what being discussed here, nVidias DLSS uses nVidia hardware, the point is and I will give you direct quotes here when asked if nVidia stops upscalers from other manufacturers being included in games that they are sponsoring their very robust response was

"NVIDIA does not and will not block, restrict, discourage, or hinder developers from implementing competitor technologies in any way. We provide the support and tools for all game developers to easily integrate DLSS if they choose and even created NVIDIA Streamline to make it easier for game developers to add competitive technologies to their games"

AMD when this same question was put to them regarding FSR responded "NO COMMENT", now the fact that FSR is open source - I don't really care, the fact that DLSS is tied to nVidia hardware - tough luck for you if you own an AMD card stick to FSR if you are that in love with it.

But if AMD is sponsoring games and then making the manufacturer of that game not have DLSS in it and blocks it from ever being added... that's anti gamer, it's also anti competitive and means AMD knows it can't compete with superior technology.

I have seen the results of FSR and DLSS and when it comes down to it - their is no competition DLSS wins hands down - that does not mean that just because AMD is the under dog that they get a free pass with this sort of rubbish.

It's simple let both technologies compete and the better technology wins that is how innovation happens, what AMD is doing if they are doing this is trying to tilt things artificially in their favour while screwing over the gamer by not letting them have the best experience possible and that is just wrong.

[johnnyenglish]

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@falloutboy wrote:

That is not what being discussed here

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You opened up a thread regarding upscalling techniques being blocked in a certain game.
So if we are talking about it, then my post is related, don't narrow the debate to your liking, thats not how an open debate works. Unless... you opened a RANT topic. I'll leave it up to you to decide.

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@falloutboy wrote:

"NVIDIA does not and will not block, restrict, discourage, or hinder developers from implementing competitor technologies in any way. We provide the support and tools for all game developers to easily integrate DLSS if they choose and even created NVIDIA Streamline to make it easier for game developers to add competitive technologies to their games"

Because they can't, FSR is open source and there is nothing more open than that. My example above, if a game developer leaves FSR out, users can still use it anyway. Even a 1060 owner can use FSR because theres no DLSS for him.

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@falloutboy wrote:

AMD when this same question was put to them regarding FSR responded "NO COMMENT", now the fact that FSR is open source - I don't really care, the fact that DLSS is tied to nVidia hardware - tough luck for you if you own an AMD card stick to FSR if you are that in love with it.

If you are bothered by this you are in your own right to protest, but it changes nothing.
Its like console exclusives.

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@falloutboy wrote:

But if AMD is sponsoring games and then making the manufacturer of that game not have DLSS in it and blocks it from ever being added... that's anti gamer, it's also anti competitive and means AMD knows it can't compete with superior technology.

Nvidia is well known for anti gamer and anti competitive decisions. AIB's are often kept in a tight leash regarding their GPU's. So your point kind'a puts nvidia in a pedestal where no brand should be. Here's some of the latest:
EVGA left the GPU market because of nvidia. ASUS avoiding RoG Strix 7900 cards, not in their plan? Hardware Unboxing almost got completely banned of nvidia samples. Nvidia been pressuring AIB's so they don't work with Intel GPU's. Nvidia locks older hardware from future DLSS releases.

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@falloutboy wrote:

I have seen the results of FSR and DLSS and when it comes down to it - their is no competition DLSS wins hands down - that does not mean that just because AMD is the under dog that they get a free pass with this sort of rubbish.

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So? Again, if you are bothered by this, feel free to protest. Not one is standing in your way.
We are just having an open debate.

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@falloutboy wrote:

It's simple let both technologies compete and the better technology wins that is how innovation happens, what AMD is doing if they are doing this is trying to tilt things artificially in their favour while screwing over the gamer by not letting them have the best experience possible and that is just wrong.

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This is a tricky subject and very complex in the gaming world. Let me give you an example.
Steam Deck is AMD hardware so no DLSS is available where FSR is.

In the end, exclusives, sponsorships and heavily biased games always existed. Its not new.
Certain games were loud about it at the very beggining.

If nvidia really was pro gamers, it would already developed an alternative DLSS technique without requiring  specific hardware that could be used just like FSR. They could have two upscalling techniques, one being the best and the other more openely available. 

Example: FSR and RSR

Conclusion:

"Jensen the leather jacket guy" Please do a more readily available upscalling technique for all your users.

I'll wait.

[falloutboy]

Actually it is game(s) not game there is more than once instance.

We are discussing AMD's behavior here because nVidia is NOT doing anything to block FSR being included in games, the fact that FSR is open source is irrelevant.

"Because they can't, FSR is open source and there is nothing more open than that. My example above, if a game developer leaves FSR out, users can still use it anyway. Even a 1060 owner can use FSR because theres no DLSS for him."

If a user wants to use an Inferior technology then by all means let them - that is the whole point nVidia is not stopping them ; however this is NO excuse for AMD to be blocking the use of DLSS and is a RUBBISH ARGUMENT.

"Nvidia is well known for anti gamer and anti competitive decisions. AIB's are often kept in a tight leash regarding their GPU's. So your point kind'a puts nvidia in a pedestal where no brand should be. Here's some of the latest:
EVGA left the GPU market because of nvidia. ASUS avoiding RoG Strix 7900 cards, not in their plan? Hardware Unboxing almost got completely banned of nvidia samples. Nvidia been pressuring AIB's so they don't work with Intel GPU's. Nvidia locks older hardware from future DLSS releases."

nVidia has been hauled over the coals repeatedly for this behavior and you are quoting stuff from the 7900 era - how is that even remotely relevant to this? and the rest of what you are quoting I have not seen ANY evidence supporting these statements and if they are greater than two years old they are irrelevant also.

I can not believe you are defending this Abhorrent behavior from AMD yet if it was nVidia doing it you would be all over them like a case of clap.

Now let me ask you this with regards to this statement "If nvidia really was pro gamers, it would already developed an alternative DLSS technique without requiring  specific hardware that could be used just like FSR. They could have two upscalling techniques, one being the best and the other more openely available. "

Why should nVidia spend time and money developing yet ANOTHER technology just so AMD fanboys can use DLSS, NVidia is there to make money just as AMD is, not spend it propping up the competition because they have inferior technology.

What AMD is doing is WRONG and yo know it you just wont admit it, that makes you a fanboy and a coward.

If nVidia did something wrong and I was aware of it I would be the first one to give them a verbal smack in the teeth and protest profusely. But AMD cant admit that its wrong.. thats cowardice.

[johnnyenglish]

I will only give this warning ONCE!

Keep it fair here in this community.

I gave some time to read what you said and I was about to debate, but my participation ended right here.

Calling a coward to another user is NOT PROPPER BEHAVIOR in any place.

@falloutboy wrote:

(...)and yo know it you just wont admit it, that makes you a fanboy and a coward.

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If this is what you are as a person, you don't have any valid arguments to keep this as a debate since everyone saying otherwise will be shut off. It feels like talking to a little child that says NO NO NO NO I don't WANNA (Cries away!)

Having said that, either you correct yourself towards me or the next post that follows this behavior will be reported!

[falloutboy]

So you are going to threaten to report me because you can't handle the truth.. That is the sort of thing that people do under fascist regimes... It fits well in 1940's Germany.

[johnnyenglish]

Yes. And I will if I feel you are being overly disrespectful again. 


But now... I cannot help myself but to leave this here. 🤣

[falloutboy]

Man talk about Ironic, by using this sort of response you are just confirming exactly what I stated and you have no actual argument.

Do as you please ... You will just be proving my point once and for all.

[johnnyenglish]

Have you got your reply from the FTC or you are still on hold?

Should I keep watching the news for a big lawsuit? 

I heard FTC just lost against Microsoft. 

Since you didnt show any respect towards me, you dont deserve an actual good argument from my side lol. At this point I'm just having fun actually so yeah, I'm doing as I please. Lol

Your point has been disproved by pretty much everyone else on this topic. But sure, keep Living the dream. Lol

[falloutboy]

O.K so you have none.. read loud and clear.

[petosiris]

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@falloutboy wrote:

So you are going to threaten to report me because you can't handle the truth.. That is the sort of thing that people do under fascist regimes... It fits well in 1940's Germany.

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No, he's going to report you if you repeat disrespectful behavior here.  I, on the other hand, am not so lenient as @johnnyenglish.  I report everything at first offence because I believe people always have a choice and if they choose to do namecalling then it's intentional and not a mistake, slip of tounge or anything like that.

[falloutboy]

Again go right ahead and again you will just be proving what I said about fascism, you don't like a dissenting voice so you try and silence it and is that what fascists do and to you a dissenting voice is anyone that does not agree 100% with your narritive.

[petosiris]

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@falloutboy wrote:

Again go right ahead and again you will just be proving what I said about fascism, you don't like a dissenting voice so you try and silence it and is that what fascists do and to you a dissenting voice is anyone that does not agree 100% with your narritive.

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I have reported you for namecalling.  Again.  I sincerely hope Staff/Admin ban you this time.

[tstec]

Hi

The biggest problem is in the licenses agreements.

The use of Nvidia DLSS requires the agreement that Nvidia can reference the game on there website and marketing materials..

It doesn't seem right to me that a game that AMD has invested time, money, markting, etc..., its forced to be on the site of its biggest competitor.

See the difference between the license to use FSR and that of Nvidia DLSS

AMD FSR = 1000 characters 

Nvidia DLSS = 25000 characters 

https://gpuopen.com/manuals/fidelityfx_sdk/fidelityfx_sdk-page_license/#license

https://github.com/NVIDIA/DLSS/blob/main/LICENSE.txt

Nvidia

" You grant to NVIDIA a non-exclusive, non-sub licensable, non-transferable (except as set
forth in the assignment provision of the Agreement), worldwide license to refer to you and your applications, and to use
your Marks on NVIDIA's marketing materials and on NVIDIA's website."

[falloutboy]

And ... no alas this is wrong and has already been covered by Hardware Unboxed, yes nVidia does have said agreements BUT if you go back to nVidia and say we cant use these terms because it stops us doing x,y,z nVidia will give exemptions.

So this argument is a NON STARTER.

[tstec]

No is not. 
what hardware unboxed says is that there are games with dlss that are not on the Nvidia site. 
Nvidia doesn’t say that will display all games but that is as the right to do so. 
that are to different thinks. 
At my knowledge no one asked Nvidia directly   

[falloutboy]

If you watch the video you will find it in there..@ Watch from position 17:14 to the end of the video Hardware Unboxed asked nVidia directly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X51DB4bIT68 

[figus]

See that FSR is usable by ANY video card, but dlss is not, is easy to understand which one need to die... sure not the one that can be used on amd, intel and nvidia card indifferently. Did you ever think of what will require to a implement dlss on a game? well many hours of work, and dlss 2.x is on par with fsr 2.x in both quality and performance, and usually texture are more detailed on fsr2, so why implement a technology that can be used only with a brand of card without any major advantage? We don't need flamers here.

[falloutboy]

When it comes down to it I don't care if FSR is included, it is inferior technology and can be seen to be inferior.

Death of a technology should only come when one can't reproduce what the other can and at the moment FSR doesn't hold a candle to DLSS.. its tough but its the truth.

All that is required to include DLSS in a game these days is a plugin - so that argument is invalid also.

Some of the rest of what you are saying is simply laughable..

[TigerherzLXXXVI]

Sorry but you sound like a loud yelling Nvidia fan to me, who is complaining that Starfield as a grand title has an exclusive technical partnership with AMD. Shall I remember you about Cyberpunk 2077? This grand Nvidia title still have SMT issues with Ryzen 8-core processors today! What about all the current Gen console gamers and affected PC gamers out there? Is it just an accident that CD Project Red hasn't managed to solve it after almost three years? And why did it take about 8 months after the official release of FSR 1.0 to implement AMDs upscaling technology into the game? According to this background you are attacking AMD on the official Red Team forum while claiming Nvidia to be a fair player. Is that alright?

[falloutboy]

And again you have it wrong, my complaint it that AMD is likely BLOCKING nVidias technology from the game and that is wrong, if it was the other way around I would complain just as loud.

[falloutboy]

Now you are just talking wild conspiracy rubbish, I own a 7700x which is an AMD 8 core CPU I have absolutely 0 issues with Cyberpunk. I recently upgraded that system to a 7950X3D and still have zero issues. What are you rabbiting on about we are not talking about console gamers your post is all over the place.

[falloutboy]

It comes down to this people - THERE IS ZERO DEFENSE FOR AMDs BEHAVIOR, if AMD had the better technology I WOULD BE USING AMD ( PROVIDED THEY STOPPED THEIR ANTI COMPETITIVE ANTI GAMER BEHAVIOR )

But AMDs FSR is in no way better than DLSS and you can be guarantied that if AMD developed better FSR tech that it manages to tie to its hardware that they will lock it in so going on about DLSS being locked to nVidia hardware is yet another rubbish argument..

MIC DROP.

[falloutboy]

It is my personal opinion that nVidia should get the FTC involved and sue AMD to release the sponsorship agreement documentation with regards to Starfield and Jedi Knight survivor and that if it is found that what is happening is what everyone believes is happening that AMD should be hauled over the coals by the FTC.

[tstec]

That type of agreements are done all the time. 
sony and Microsoft are doing it all the time with exclusives games

[johnnyenglish]

Spot on!

I actually said that too 😉

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@johnnyenglish wrote:

If you are bothered by this you are in your own right to protest, but it changes nothing.
Its like console exclusives.

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[falloutboy]

I just found this Video discounting all of your garbage arguments. 

Maybe all of you people commenting should watch it and think about things from the consumers side of things, not the salty AMD fanboy perspective.

[TigerherzLXXXVI]

If there's any disguised AMD fan in the official Nvidia forum at the moment who is offending the Nvidia fans? What's wrong with this world?

[falloutboy]

Actually I run AMD CPU's I am not a fan boy of any particular vendor, I go where the hardware takes me to the best possible gaming experience and the fact of the matter is at the moment and indeed for quite some time on the GPU side of things that is nVidia.

I run a 7950X3D and a Threadripper 2950x for reference and previously run Intel 6900K so your statements are just you being a salty AMD fan boy and if it takes insulting you for you to realize that AMD is being anti gamer and by supporting them doing that you are doing the same thing - so be it.

[mazi]

that guy was rooting also for Gsync all the way. He is just whining because the beloved GPU he uses privately "just might" not show all potential as he speculates. He lost the fun in gaming allready...

[johnnyenglish]

He can still use FSR 😂

[falloutboy]

FSR Sucks balls, I would rather drive a rusty nail though my foot than suffer an inferior experience.

[johnnyenglish]

Sounds unpleasant but sure, go ahead. 😉

[TigerherzLXXXVI]

This kind of behavior is a real mess. Why should anybody in this forum follow your argumentation with terrible answers like this? I'm an AMD fan that's true. And believe it or not, for me DLSS is the much better upscaling technology against FSR on the image quality side, especially in lower resolutions such as 1080p and 1440p. But FSR 2 works pretty good in 4K with quality mode for example. You get the less flickering image plus an additional performance boost compared to the native resolution.

[mazi]

this topic still is wild speculation with no evidence whats o ever. Alas - not a single accusation holds water when thinkin about what benefits there could be for either side.

From a game devs perspective

- in case you have DLSS implemented first, lets assume with some sort of aid by the green team, the outcome might be benefitial. But not for all your customers, so you kind a have to start implementing the alternatives as well. But surely green team won't do extra hours for that.

- in case you have FSR2 implemented first, lets assume with some sort of aid by the red team, the outcome might be benefitial. And it works for all your customers. And then you think, could there be any relevant improvement for implementing the alternatives as well? Surely the red team won't help you on that either. You might give it a try and when you test it and can't find even more benefits you call it a day. Simple as that.

If at all it's simple logic to find more games only supporting an open standard than the other way round, it depends on what went first. Who ever assumes there is conspiracy should first and foremost ask the software developers studios, not the HW marketing guys. 😂

[falloutboy]

Well someone suggested last night that it was all speculation when I mentioned that maybe nVidia should get the FTC involved as they can compel the paperwork involved ( I have seen the legal documents showing them doing this with Microsoft ) they poo poo'd it.

So this morning I contacted the FTC myself as I believe they don't require evidence to investigate and compel the paperwork out AMD they just need the slightest suggestion that something untoward is going on.

We will see if the FTC sues AMD left right and sideways.

Don't get me wrong I don't want to see AMD disappear, but I want them to be honest with the consumer and cease any anti competitive / anti consumer behavior. I would expect the same if it was nVidia. 

[falloutboy]

Okay lets get past speculation, I have just contacted the FTC CRC and made this request.... Lets let the law decide if its worth investigaing.

*********************************

Hello,
I would like to know what I should do about this, there is a company which it has been suggested is undertaking anti competitive behavior by blocking their competition from the marketplace.
While there is significant anecdotal evidence to suggest this is the case the only way that I believe actual documentation will be provided regarding this situation is for them to be legally compelled to produce it.
Is there anything that the FTC can do?
The status Quo if these suppositions are correct is that this company is acting in a way that is anti competitive and anti consumer choice.

Thank you in advance.

***********************

[falloutboy]

No it comes down to , each team should go in ONLY to assist in enabling their technology be it FSR or DLSS in the game no one is expecting them to implement code for the other team just put their tech in and leave it at that. But that is not the situation, the situation is AMD putting in their tech and stopping the developer even if they wanted to from ever having DLSS and getting support from nVidia - not AMD to do it.

And that is just plain wrong.

[mazi]

so you have completely disconnected from realities

omg get a life boy