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hardcoregames_
Big Boss

Re: Im selling my AMD cards

windows gaming is still more than double all consoles etc combined

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ajlueke
Grandmaster

Re: Im selling my AMD cards

Generally, in big budget games that are simultaneously released across platforms PC makes up a small percentage of overall sales.  PC was a whopping 9% of the Wolfenstein II:  A New Colossus sales.  http://www.vgchartz.com/article/270793/wolfenstein-ii-the-new-colossus-sells-an-estimated-319000-uni...

These are the types of games that generally require discrete graphics hardware, or a dedicated console to play.  I'm sure more people play games on mobile devices than Windows, but no developer is going to be adding ray tracing to your phone game.

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leyvin
Miniboss

Re: Im selling my AMD cards

Global Video Game Market, Sales and Value

The above link is one of the few Statistics that includes Official Steam and Blizzard Data, as opposed to estimated Data.

I don't expect you to drop the $6,000 for the full market report and breakdown, but the Overview PDF provides detailed enough information for purpose.

Now on a personal note, my Studio uses the Data from Olsberg-SPI and UKIE (UK Interactive Entertainment) Research and Statistics., which provide an excellent picture of the Market as a whole, given again they source Digital as well as Physical Distribution Figures.

VGChartz for example just sources NPD Retail Association Figures (so Physical Only., which as you can see from the UKIE Datasheets; accounts for only ~30% of the Total Sales Market, and is a mirrored trend between Movie/TV and Video Games; while Music remains ~50%)

Now as you'll also notice is that Physical Retail has remained fairly stagnant, having peaked in 2010., while Digital Sales continues a roughly 10% growth year-on-year.

Why is this important, because we have a roughly 25% to 21% Disparity between the Overall Market Value.

What this does is showcase that the vast majority of PC Sales are via Digital Distribution (i.e. Steam / Origin / Marketplace / Battle.net) however this doesn't result in a substantially different skew. We also must consider the Console : PC Ratio.

If we use the UK as a template (as it will be atypical of Western., i.e. EU / NA Gaming), we can derive the estimated Market Sizes in "Real-Terms" Figures.

That is to say that in 2017 there are 32.4M Gamers., of those 12.7M Console (Xbox One / PlayStation 4) and 11.4M (Windows PC).

As we know the UK Retail Figures for PlayStation 4 and Xbox One, we can actually further break this down.

10.26M (Europe) / 3.96M (UK) Xbox One

32.79M (Europe) / 4.93M (UK) PlayStation 4

I included the EU Total with the UK Total (2017) as you'll notice there is a big difference in the Ratio Distribution., and this is because Germany, Spain and France (the key markets in Europe) which have only marginally larger markets., have a massive disparity between the Platforms being 4:1 in terms of Sales Ratio.

As an Xbox One / Windows 10 Development Studio, this essentially has remained good news., as we really don't have to put much cost or effort into European Translation, Certification and Distribution... as the market just doesn't exist to justify supporting such, nor do we have to pander to said regions in terms of Game, Story or Sensibilities Design. Instead we can focus exclusively on the Anglo / Western Market much more exclusively.

Something you'll notice though is this only accounts for 8.89M Consoles, even if we include the Nintendo Switch., this only rises to 9.56M … as such we can assume that even in 2018., there is still a number of Xbox 360 / PlayStation 3 / Nintendo Wii U Games (15.96M)., and as note the Handheld does perfectly align with the NDS and PSV sales (States 4.5M Vs. NPD 4.54M).

Now if we look over the Yearly (2017) Software Sales (UK) we get the following breakdown:

PlayStation 4 • 10.72M

Xbox One • 6.87M

Window PC • 0.48M (1.60M)

Within the Brackets, as the NPD Figures are Retail only and we know that Digital Accounts for roughly 69-70% of all Sales (which are factored in for Console Sales, as these are closed Platforms that supply NPD Figures., unlike Steam) then this means we should be looking at 1.60M (est.) Total PC Sales.

Of course we are seeing the PC Market Value (even in the UK) relatively even with the Consoles Combined,. just as we're seeing a similar 45:55 Split in terms of Market Share... and sure arguably we can say PC has a "Even Share compared to Combined Consoles" … but this is ONLY true if we're looking at the POTENTIAL Market, not the actual Unit Sales Figures.

So, how is it that we can be seeing a similar income when clearly PC Gamers aren't purchasing much Software.

Well that's simple., keep in mind the MASSIVE differential in terms of Games on PC that are either Subscription, Freemium or Heavily Micro-Transaction Focused... and what's perhaps more notable is such Freemium (Free-to-Play) Games do not have Retail, thus no "Sales" Values attached., while also supporting a larger percentage of the Market as a whole.

Remember that according to the Steam Hardware Survey, only 36% of the Total Market ACTUALLY has Minimum Requirement Hardware.

That being 4 Thread 3.2GHz CPU / 4GB Memory / R7 260 or GTX 650 Graphics.

i.e. let's assume this is universal, then this means the "Total UK Market" drops from 11.4M to 4.10M capable of actually playing the latest PC Releases.

And if we go further than that., if we look at the percentage of that market that owns a "Beyond Mainstream" Graphics Card., i.e. £400+ MSRP Graphics Card; then this drops to 8.6% or 0.98M. 

Keep in mind here, that our Potential Market is essentially half the Total Software Sales for the Year., and we can't expect 100% Attachment Rate...

Avg. is 5-8%, while Good. is 8-12%... and even most AAA Titles will typically sit between Avg. to Good.

And this is important to keep in mind., because while sure Globally Speaking we would be talking about a much larger market than just the UK we're not talking about the figures being any more "Encouraging" or "Appealing" for Developers.

The only way that my Studio would implement NVIDIA Specific Features, such-as RTX, DLAA, DLAI, etc. would be if NVIDIA essentially sent us the Hardware for free under the provision that we supported Gameworks / RTX Features. Even then., it would only be for said Single Release if we weren't seeing the attachment rate figures to warrant said time investment going forward.

hardcoregames_
Big Boss

Re: Im selling my AMD cards

The PC game world is much larger as there are multiple game sources and many classic games are not on steam etc.

PC gaming has been the primary platform and it will continue to be and consoles have seen their sales fall over time as PC sales have managed to gain some grown mostly as backwards compatibility is so much better.

try playing an Xbox 360 disk on a PS4, no joy. PC games from DX5 onwards work almost universally.DRM is a problem for a few titles but patches for those problems are available.

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colesdav
MVP

Re: Im selling my AMD cards

Do you have any view on the % of PC Gamers running Nvidia versus AMD GPU these days?
The reported %of AMD GPU on Steam was as low as 8% in Jan 2018. It is now back up to ~ 15%

The other 10% ~=Intel iGPU.
If the Steam Hardware Survey is correct then Nvidia dominate PC gaming with discrete GPU at ~75% market share. 
Is it not likely developers will at least try to implement whatever features Nvidia try to promote in this case?.

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leyvin
Miniboss

Re: Im selling my AMD cards

hardcoregames™

"The PC game world is much larger as there are multiple game sources and many classic games are not on steam etc."

I mention that the statistics above include Steam because Valve typically do not provide such data to 3rd Parties., in-fact it's actually quite difficult to even get a full suite of statistics as developer / publisher of a title.

Good Old Gaming, Greenman Gaming, Origin, UPlay, Google Play, iTunes and Microsoft Store are already included., and their statistics are actually publicly available upon request or via their Quarterly Reports.

It's only Valve who normally lack transparency in their Figures., Blizzard-Activision are also quite cagey about said Statistics.

Quite odd that the two "Developers" are the ones who while being the most dominant Digital Retail Groups, are also the least Transparent in terms of Detailed Information as opposed to High-Level Overview Fiscal Reports.

We see a similar situation with Sony (PlayStation)., whom likes to obscure their data listing "Shipped" instead of "Sold" Units.

And yes, there can be quite a big difference between the two sometimes., especially when we're talking about Global Figures.

"PC gaming has been the primary platform and it will continue to be and consoles have seen their sales fall over time as PC sales have managed to gain some grown mostly as backwards compatibility is so much better"

This is simply false and had you bothered to check the links provided, you will have seen that despite all markets growing by (Avg.) 8.5% Year-on-Year in terms of Market Totals., what you will have also seen is that proportionally speaking the overall PC Software Sales have remains Stagnant while Console Software Sales have continued to grow proportional to the Overall Market.

As such despite there being more PC Gamers than ever before, the actual Market Share has continued to drop, as is the viability (from a Developer standpoint) been no different today in terms of Potential Market since 2009.

Yet actually this gets even worse (as a PC Developer)., because the number of Competing Software Studios has risen at an exponential rate., along with the production of Software... meaning there are 2x Studios Vs. 2009 and 3x Released Software Vs. 2009.

That means that the actual potential for a Successful Release has dropped from 8:1 down to 20:1., while for Console this remains at 5:1.

(i.e. the number of Unsuccessful Titles in capable of breaking Even Vs. Successful).

This as a keynote is why Mainstream Developers no longer develop PC Exclusive or even as a Primary Platform., because the return simply doesn't exist.

As a keynote it can be easily argued that this situation is ENTIRELY the fault of Valve (Steam)., due to no Platform Curation or Quality Control.

"try playing an Xbox 360 disk on a PS4, no joy. PC games from DX5 onwards work almost universally.DRM is a problem for a few titles but patches for those problems are available"

Try running Linux or Apple Software on Windows, no joy. See I can make vacuous and stupid statements to.

As for DirectX 5 (on-ward) working "Almost Universally"., oh come the f**k on.

DirectX 5 Games were barely compatible BETWEEN Windows 95 and 98... let alone on Modern Windows., and there is a reason for that too.

Until DirectX 8.1., Core Feature Support was "Optional" … and until DirectX 9.0c., Advanced Feature Support was "Hardware Dependant" (similar to OpenGL ARB) although at least by DirectX 9.0, Microsoft had the sense to make the Fallback for said Functionality a "Core Feature" … then by DirectX 10 it was simple... you either fully supported the DirectX Specification or you weren't allowed to support the Specification at all.

In fact most Modern Hardware actually no longer even has half of the Functions or Features that the majority of Classic Games *REQUIRE* to run.

Sure, there *might* be solutions available to emulate such behaviour but you're not going to have a flawless experience.

I'm sorry, but you're being naïve and delusional about the PC Market., and as I said, above... from my perspective as a Developer, and one that can't be simply throwing money away to appease a small subset of the potential audience, simply isn't justifiable. It's NOT going to make a return unless we happen to get extremely lucky., which you frankly can't bank on.

Big Publishers can do this, as the success of their Core Franchises essentially covers the costs and risks … plus it's good PR for them.

colesdav​ •

Steam Hardware Surveys are unfortunately not an accurate representation of the Hardware Market,. because they're using Global Figures.

As such the Oceania (APAC) Regions is approx. 95% NVIDIA Graphics and 98% Intel Processors... which given they're the largest PC Audience (1.2 Billion)., can give a skewed view on the Market as a whole.

More over we need to keep in mind that very few actually own their own PCs, but instead current game at dedicated Internet Café … and I'd wager that Services such-as GeForce Now! have the potential to become popularised., but we'll see given local publishers can make more from individual Café licenses and said Café are not going to want to compete with a Game Streaming Service like GeForce Now!

So we'll have to see what happens there... plus it gets difficult to really predict how such will affect Developer / Publisher Revenues.

I think I'd rather tackle that in it's own Thread, as while I do see Subscription Services (EA Access, Xbox Game Pass, etc.) as the future of Digital Retail., but what this means from the business standpoint is … well it's something I think needs to really be hammered out over the next few years to avoid the same mistakes of IAP / MTA that occurred in the Mid to Late 2000s., or in the modern incarnation "Loot Boxes".

In any case we MUST ignore APAC as it's a "Special Case" Market., instead if we focus exclusively on North America and Europe.

Well we see a very different breakdown...

As it stands Intel Graphics (and for arguments sake let's actually include all APU, as most are below the "Minimum" Specification) … then they account for approx. 64% of the Total Market., which is the figure I used in my previous post.

This leaves 36% of the Total Market split between NVIDIA and AMD Graphics.

What you might find interesting however is the Total Number of DirectX 12 Vs. DirectX 11 Hardware., remember that in essence we're talking about AMD Graphics from 2012 to 2018 and NVIDIA Graphics 2014 - 2018.

The Split here is 54% DirectX 12 Vs. 46% DirectX 11... and this is important, because we're talking about the 2018 Hardware Breakdown.

So we're down to 20% of the Total Graphics Market has a "Modern" Graphics Card.

If we further break this down into the AMD Vs. NVIDIA Split., well we have 28% Vs. 72%... sure it's heavily skewed toward NVIDIA here, but keep in mind we're not finished yet; and bare in mind that we're down to 14% of the Total Market (for NVIDIA).

The last thing we need to do is break this down into Mainstream Vs. Enthusiast... (i.e. GTX 1030/1050/1060 Vs. 1070/1080/Titan) where we see a complete flip of 83% Vs. 18% … meaning that our Total Market for those who "Might" Upgrade to RTX 2070 or above., is 2.5%.

In blunt terms here... IF a Developer was already supporting Gameworks, then Supporting RTX Features might be worthwhile.

After all, you're already supporting said Ecosystem., but even then we don't know yet just how difficult it is to implement said Features and Functions.

And this is a major factor. Remember how DirectX 12 Capable Systems account for 54% of the Target Audience., but how many Developers are actually supporting DirectX 12? We have less than 2 Dozen Titles in the past 24 Months.

What's more, of those titles only 3 Support Native DirectX 12 as opposed to DirectX 11on12... which is merely using the DirectX 12 API as a Foundation, while for all intended purposes the Engine itself is still DirectX 11., so few (if any) DirectX 12 Enhancements, Features or Performance Gains are actually being used., instead support in said case is little more than a Checkbox Feature, like say supporting Anti-Aliasing via FXAA or SMAA; as opposed to actually supporting the various Optimised, High-Performance and High-Quality Anti-Aliasing Methods., such-as TXAA, CMAA, etc.

I think this is why NVIDIA are focusing so heavily on DLSS (which is a Plug-and-Play Anti-Aliasing), because it's a way of claiming support., even if essentially it's just as Costless / Lightweight as FXAA. Careful manipulation of Performance Tables are a specialty of NVIDIA., as they're almost certainly comparing to MSAA 4x or SSAA 2x., which are quite performance intensive; as opposed to FXAA, TXAA or CMAA which are each quite lightweight with decent Image Quality, and if DLSS does produce a noticeable Image Quality improvement will be subjective (but right now, we simply have no idea; as they're actually comparing it in terms of DLSS or AA-On and AA-Off, even though performance charts are comparing the performance overhead of AA Vs. AA)

Still, if you're not using Gameworks... well adding it just for DLSS, which regardless if you're using anything else DOES come with a performance hit., not to mention the integration time; well where's the benefit for Developers for such a small Audience? While at the same time pissing off their existing potential audience?

It's a hard sell, and almost certainly why NVIDIA is "Partnering" (likely bribing via underwriting development costs, or free hardware) in order to get some game to even support DLSS at launch. God knows what they've given to the Studios that are supporting RTX Features like Ray-Tracing., because that almost certainly requires a substantial alteration of the Engine to support.

hardcoregames_
Big Boss

Re: Im selling my AMD cards

When Gamespy folded it hurt multiplayer for over 100 titles. Punkbuster has faded for VAC and other security choices.

There are a lot of upcoming games for the PC so it might be an idea to get a better video card as some of the new shooters are likely to be demanding

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leyvin
Miniboss

Re: Im selling my AMD cards

Gamespy Services being shutdown was hardly sudden., and there were already a handful of emulation services available when it happened.

Punkbuster has NOT been replaced by VAC... primarily because VAC doesn't even perform the same task., it's merely an Automated Report and Reputation System; it doesn't prevent any Code Injectors / Hacks / Services.

Punkbuster is still heavily used by most FPS Games.

With this said... I don't see what that has to do with the Graphics Card.

Nor do I see how the number of PC Releases has anything to do with the Graphics Card either... as very few will actually require anything more than a Mainstream GPU to play at fairly high (if not maximum) Graphical Settings.

If you'd like to actually read (and pay attention) to the information presented within this thread instead of going off on non-sequitur arguments., then you might actually learn something.

As it stands you're just showcasing how misinformed you are.

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pokester
MVP

Re: Im selling my AMD cards

Just curious as I own over 700 games and literally only a few use punkbuster that I know of. Even several that did have released patches removing it. When I look at PB setup it has less than 10 games in the pull down menu now. Is punkbuster using a different setup in the new titles you say use it? Can you name some modern AAA titles that use it? Just curious as I don't usually pay much attention to these things and kinda thought it's usage had almost dropped off to non-existence myself. I don't claim to be any expert at this and found your conversation interesting.

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