General Discussions

[black_zion]

Again, it's a rumor, but it IS published in the Taiwanese newspaper Digitimes (translation below), it does carry more weight than a social media post. It also would mean that, as it is a 2021 product, AMD would be under no obligation whatsoever to 300 series motherboards to support them. It is also EXACTLY what every other company has done when there is a lack of competition: sit back and collect money from old products while holding new ones from sale.

https://wccftech.com/amd-allegedly-delaying-ryzen-4000-series-zen-3-cpus-to-2021/

[red_misfit]

Rumor is what it is, a rumor. Digitimes also claimed Zen 3 was moving to 5nm.

The last official words from AMD for Zen 3 are from Devinder Kumar, just 2 weeks ago at Bank of America Conference during a Q&A :

We remain on track to launch our next-generation Zen 3 CPUs and RDNA 2 GPUs in late 2020 and believe we can deliver another year of strong revenue growth and margin expansion in 2020, based on the strength of the product portfolio, and the diversity of the markets we serve.

Zen 2 is selling very well okay. But there are few things to consider :

1) AMD is not overselling everywhere, it is overselling in DIY market and not at EVERY retailer/e-tailer on the planet. That's only a small part of the pie for desktop CPU market.

2) What "Digitimes" called lack of competition, is morely looking at Intel is still doing very well. AMD themselves kindly see that numbers are still on intel side (80% or more shares for Desktop/Laptop, 90% for Server).

So they still have to convince people, enterprise, datacenter, cloud partners, that they can deliver better products on schedule and get way ahead of Intel on performance. And not wait like Intel have done with low performance upgrade & maximum price over the last decade.

3) AMD stated they will support the AM4 platform until late 2020, they didn't said "300 series chipset". And it's already a known fact that Ryzen 4000 desktop series will only be supported by 400, 500 and the future 600 chipset series. The 300 will not. The 400 will need a bios update but AMD will only deliver after getting a proof that the user have a Zen 3 CPU.

My guess is that this bios will be available online anyway, someone gonna upload it so anyone can get it of course.. except if they can lock it to one CPU (the one which is claimed to be bought) but that would be time consuming for them to do it so very unlikely. But that won't make the 300 series compatible.

Not every company react the same, and yes we can't know the truth until it release, but AMD themselves are communicating on the fact they should never settle so it is hard to think they will suddenly change their mind. As stated in point 2, if they really want to grab the market they gonna have to go for it. Sitting back & collecting money won't help them keep the momentum they have.

It is because they have released 3 generation of products since April 2017, that they have been gaining more market share each time. If you keep improving your products on a regular basis, many will upgrade or change their hardware more often. If you don't, people just sit back & wait until there is enough improvement to buy something new.

You can easily compare this to another market (not everyone follows that patterns of course, whether it is for smartphone or PC), would you buy a new smartphone every year or every 2 years if all that was on the table was 5% improvements and a couple of barely used features ?

I know that with Intel, you could wait 4 or 5 years before changing your PC/CPU. Because each generation was a very slow jump in performance barely seeable, so it was pointless. There is only one way you can keep people on the loop as often as they can afford it, and it's to bring better hardware all the way as fast as you can design and produce it.

[pokester]

It would be good to for AMD to directly clarify things. There were these rumors going back months now and with the surprise addition of a refresh of Zen 2 chips it is causing speculation that may or may not be warranted. A bit more communication from AMD would go a long way. I would be surprised at a delay from AMD for the given reasons as that has never been AMD's way of doing things. To my knowledge I don't ever remember them sitting on current tech because they have the advantage. 

[red_misfit]

They officialy clarified it with the press today. News are popping up to claim that this allegation is false.

The first i saw was here : AMD Confirms "Vermeer" Zen 3 Not Delayed, to Launch in 2020 | TechPowerUp

At least they didn't wait for wild fire to consume everything before denying, and that is good to keep information (or rumors) that spread out accurate.

Thank you AMD for the quick transparency !

[pokester]

Thanks for the share! I am glad they communicated quickly too. Some times misconception is pretty hard to correct once it is out there. 

[pokester]

I have to add though that to me the Zen2 refresh IMHO is still a great addition. The new Zen3 processors will come at likely a higher price point. These new chips refresh chips only make the current great chips even faster. The are still a tremendous value for what you get. Plus for those who had not upgraded to Zen2 yet on older platforms that support Zen2, it really gives them a better chip to upgrade to worth buying. 

[black_zion]

Still have to wait and see if it's true that EPYC, Threadripper, and Ryzen segments all launch and are available by the end of the year. Hopefully 300 series chipset support will be sorted by then or a lawsuit filed as well.

[pokester]

Not looking promising on that front. They pretty much said no support prior to 400, IMHO some earlier board should work. They should leave that choice up to the manufacturer. Then they also have not promised release time support for any boards prior to B550 to my knowledge. I would assume 570 support should exist day one, but I have not seen that. 

[red_misfit]

black_zion‌

Maybe we still have to see if that's true, but at least we know AMD current roadmap stand still. Between Zen 2 launch & Zen 2 available there has been 0 day !

Zen 2 announced early June 2019 at computex, launched 7 July 2019, there was report of shortage for the 3900X only during 2 months (all cpu delivered to retailer were sold out at each delivery during july & august). But CPUs were available on the launch day.

You can't file a lawsuit for 300 series chipset. Because the words from AMD at the times were "Supporting AM4 until 2020", not "Supporting 300 series chipset until 2020". AM4 is covering 300 series to 600. I've seen only one image stating that with "AM4 you won't have to change motherboard*"

But i can't find the full image to see what text lay behind the * (might no be an official AMD image too)

-> https://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/AMD-Ryzen-4000-Vermeer-Zen-3-Desktop-CPUs-Compat... 

There might be technical limitation in the 300 series to support Zen 3 (they just told about bios memory space limit so far).
But in the end, there still might be motherboard manufacturer that will provide compatible beta BIOS for X370, but AMD won't guarantee anything. That will be up to the motherboard manufacturer only ! (unless AMD changes its mind before late 2020)

Source : https://www.amd.com/en/chipsets/x570 

pokester‌

The X570 should be ready on day one, there is enough space on the bios memory (like the B550) to get the update when it is ready (or a beta bios at least).

[pokester]

I don't know if it is or isn't possible aside from some of the 1st gen boards had even smaller bios, but many did not.

The revision difference between series 3xx and 4xx were minute compare to the jump to 5xx. 

Actually several employees said as much in interviews. It was even on their website for over two years as a heading over all AM4 boards saying the boards are "FUTURE PROOF". It was even said by AMD officials on the blog. 

I have already posted several of the interviews, website links and promotional slides directly from AMD stating this. 

Frankly if they really had not said this they would not have reversed their decision. They didn't expect the backlash.

Any way google this stuff and you will find many mentions of this. 

Go to internet archive wayback machine and you can see their statements on the AM4 page yourself. 

Honestly AMD already settled a class action lawsuit last year over last gen CPU's core information not being correct and that IMHO had far less negative information causing the lawsuit than this. 

Regardless anyone can FILE a laws suit. They just may or may not win depending on if they make their case or not. 

[colesdav]

I hope they are on track to release Zen 3 on time but who knows what to believe?

The Ryzen 3000 XT YouTube  launch is possibly an attempt to keep selling the 3000 series for longer.
A +100MHz boost clock increase with same base clock does not seem very interesting to me.

I am sure lots of people are now delaying builds until Zen 3 comes out with new high end motherboards that are designed to support the Zen 3 CPU.
I do not trust the X470 one way BIOS flash.
I do not trust that Zen3 will even work on existing X570 boards correctly. 

I will wait for Zen 3 release and YouTube Tech Reviews.

Unfortunately having had my hands on an RX5700XT GPU I do not trust the majority of YouTube Tech Reviewers either.
I think any of them who claimed they didn't see an RX5700XT BSOD and Black Screen on Adrenalin 2019 19.12.1 drivers or earlier are complete and utter merchants of  "Bovine Waste".

[colesdav]

Look at the price jump for that extra 100 MHz  Boost Clock!
AMD Announces Ryzen 3900XT, 3800XT, and 3600XT Performance Desktop CPUs - ExtremeTech 

I ain't gettin on that plane - fool.

If those prices are correct, AMD Marketing better try some of these techniques:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0BinEFCp38

[colesdav]

It seems that the 3900X ships with a Wraith Prism Cooler included, but these 3900XT do not according to that article.
That is not good either and makes the additional cost even worse.
No way - wait for Zen 3.

[pokester]

Frankly the Wraith Prism wasn't adequate for my 3700x a 65 watt processor. I never understood why the higher wattage processors didn't come with something more to begin with. Better yet other than APU's I would prefer they just not come with anything let you put your money towards an efficient cooler you will actually use. 

[red_misfit]

They are retailing the "XTs" at the same MSRP the "Xs" were when releasing 1 year ago. The XTs will follow the same pattern and cost less in a few months, as it's the case with most hardware price that drops after a little while.

Both XTs & Xs series gonna be sold at the same time (until Xs ran out in the inventory), why would you sell both series at the same price ? People would only buy the XT, it makes no sense from the company point of view.

ANd yeah it seems 3900XT AND the 3800XT won't have a cooler inside the retail box. That would be sad, still need to be confirmed on the product shipping.
But AMD mention here ( AMD Offers Enthusiasts More Choice Than Ever Before with New Ryzen™ 3000XT Processors | Advanced Mic...  ) that only the 3600XT would have the wraith spire cooler.

We will know, soon enough, for sure when the products pop online at retailer / etailer.

[colesdav]

There is no way I see the price differential as justified. An extra 100MHz Boost is nothing. 
It is a cash grab if those prices are correct and the cooler is not included. 
A Wraith Prism RGB Cooler sells for ...$53 dollars new.
Adding "XT" to the end of the name of a GPU or CPU is a bad sign w.r.t. cost vs performance if you ask me. 

[black_zion]

The 1800X didn't ship with a cooler either even though it had the same TDP as the 1700X. Still, with AMD's aggressive boost algorithms, aggressive as defined by WAY TOO MUCH VOLTAGE, it really does take a high powered closed loop liquid cooler to extract the most performance, and even then the boost clocks can't match what manually tweaking them can do, so not including a cooler isn't the worst thing in the world considering AMD's stock coolers aren't really adequate anymore for anything not marked 65w TDP.

[colesdav]

If they do not ship the cooler with them they should drop the price - you can always fit a Wraith Prism RGB Cooler to a Ryzen 3600 and that does make a difference to that GPU.

[pokester]

I actually did just that when I got my 3700x I tried the prism on it and terrible. The processor was hot and throttled and I have awesome airflow in my case.

I had the same issue with last year when I got my 3600 with the stealth. So I had replace it with a simple 212 evo and it was fantastic. 

So when I got the prism and saw how much bigger it was than the stealth had been I figured move the 212 evo to the 3700x and just put the prism on the 3600.

I did just that and the 3600 was still to hot with the prism. I ended up buying another  212 evo.

The AMD coolers are not worth more than maybe 20 bucks. 

I think they should just drop the price of the CPU's 10-20 bucks and just let you buy one adequate or actually give you competent cooler. 

There are some chips that are cool enough with the stock cooler. Many as reported over and over in these forums are not. There seems to be a pretty big variance with thermals and ability to hit boost clocks in what passes validation. 

This is why I did not go with more than a 3700x I have seem several videos where 3800x's don't really sustain enough boost to be worth the extra money. On top of that, the 65w part should have better longevity as well as being cheaper to operate. 

[colesdav]

Interesting - maybe there is a big variation in Ryzen 3600 or the Wraith Prism Cooler Quality or both?
Perhaps different motherboard BIOS voltages applied to the CPU?
The build I am talking about is here:
Libertas

I am not disagreeing with your experience or opinion. 
Maybe if you posted your build information we could discuss differences in the builds?
Not right now though I am afraid.

Thanks again for your help.

[pokester]

Oh wow that it is shocking. That should have been same price with a lowering of current processors. 

Zen 3 is already received a lot of negative press for the one real short coming it has by comparison to Intel and that is hitting and the length of time the processor will stay at the max boot clock. So when your are paying more for boost not base clock it could very well be that the performance you gain in literally the vast majority of computing you do will be negligible. Then if this creates more heat and pushes you closer to the thermal max throttling could even result in worse performance. 

It will be interesting to see if reviews prove or not that the price increase is worth it. 

[colesdav]

I have not gone for high end Ryzen 3000 series GPU. I have not had much time to look at R5 3600 performance tuning, so I cannot comment on the boost clocks or undervolting it. The build I did with it was for a budget, non overclocked but stable gaming build. The budget got blown because it  ended up with a Palit RTX 2080 OC. AMD Drivers crashing was not an option. The cooler that was supplied with the R5 3600 (Wraith Stealth) was not good enough. The CPU was running hot and throttling. Solution was to fit the Wraith Prism Cooler that came with an R7 2700X.

[pokester]

Pretty much my experience but my 3600 would hit 88, 89 even with the prism. About 4 degrees better than the stealth. Still not to my liking. You throttle in games you get stuttering among other issue. Obviously I know that you already know that better than me. I am glad that a tried and true cooler like the 212 evo for 30-35 bucks does the trick. I don't overclock any of my 3xxx series processors. Many of the IMHO best tech sites Linus, Stephen, Jay all agree it is basically not worth it, with the way the architecture works. 

[red_misfit]

You probably have a problem somewhere, because reviewer are getting close to 20° less than your prism on a 3600 (but they agree the stealth can't keep up with Zen2, it is designed for Zen & Zen+ only).

Even if they tested outside a case, there is no way it will get around +20° inside a case.

Intel Box Cooler vs. AMD Wraith Series - TechSpot 

Other review is stating that basicly the Prism is enough even for the 12 core 3900X, getting better cooling won't result in dramatic performance increase. And the prism is enough to reach AMD promised clock. But you're only gaining 50 to 100Mhz if you're buying a better cooling solution.

So getting a new cooler benefit mostly temperature for the CPU and by doing it silently for you ears

Ryzen 9 3900X: Wraith Prism RGB Stock Cooler vs. 360mm AIO Liquid Cooler - TechSpot 

[pokester]

Nope no problem as my temps with the EVO 212 are identical as what are typically reported with the prism. More likely I have a prism with the base not flat as has widely been reported.