General Discussions

[black_zion]

Well this is highly disappointing, especially considering this is the last of Socket AM4, with Zen 4 coming on a new socket. Would you buy a new motherboard just to support one generation of processors, when the next will come with such massive improvements like PCIe 5, DDR5, and USB4, especially since you just spent $300+ on an X370/X470 board a year or two? I sure as heck ain't, and I have a feeling quite a number of people will feel the same.

Per https://community.amd.com/community/gaming/blog/2020/05/07/the-exciting-future-of-amd-socket-am4  And AMD's official side:

[hardcoregames_]

pokester wrote:

This has actually been reported a lot. Go into your bios and lock the PCIe port to 3.0 not 4.0. That may help. 

I know it has, I prefer to call it pass/fail and power up. Any fiddling is a big fat * which cannot be swept away.

I was figuring a POST would validate the claims that others have made.

[blueskies]

According to The Exciting Future of AMD Socket AM4: "Historic upgradeability is what AMD Socket AM4 has been known for throughout its life, and that legacy continues—even now in 2020"

Well, X470 was announced 2 years, ago, and it's no longer compatible. B450 was considered to be the go-to motherboard for low and midrange users who don't need PCIe4.0 up until a month ago, and it is not going to be compatible. In fact, X470 was a reasonable choice for high-end users who don't need PCIe4.0, but would like to get a nicely built high end boards (CH7, Taichi, etc.)

So how exactly does the Socket AM4 support upgradeability in 2020? Needing to buy a not-yet-released motherboard doesn't exactly sound like "historic upgradeability".

Please AMD: reconsider this decision and let board makers offer BIOS upgrades on B450/X470, even if those are unofficial "beta" BIOSes.

[colesdav]

RE: "X470 was announced 2 years,"  - but when did the boards actually turn up for sale?
Mmm let me see.
Initial reviews in September  - November 2018 - with reviews of higher end X470 boards as late as April 2019.

RE: and it's no longer compatible
In what sense?
It is compatible. X470 is more likely to be compatible than B450.
Take for example the ROG CrossHaIr Hero WIFI VII. - The BIOS on that board is large enough, deliberately in preparation for newer AMD CPUs.
Was that just a lucky guess by ASUS or did AMD tell them something?

RE: B450 was considered to be the go-to motherboard for low and midrange users who don't need PCIe4.0.
Who does need PCIE 4.0, really, apart from RX 5500XT owners whose GPUs don't have enough internal PCIe lanes to perform properly on a PCIe3.0x16 bus.
Nice one.
Which idiot thought that one up?
I will buy a really expensive X570 motherboard & pair it with an RX 5500XT - Well I guess you might if you have no money left to buy a decent GPU.

This is the post you should look at for promises: https://community.amd.com/community/gaming/blog/2019/05/27/socket-am4-platform-longevity-getting-ryz... 

RE: Needing to buy a not-yet-released motherboard doesn't exactly sound like "historic upgradeability".

 It is a cash grab, just like X570 motherboard pricing was/is.

In future when considering new AMD Motherboard and "AM4 Socket".  Remember this:

[colesdav]

 Correction Initial reviews in September  - November 2018 - with reviews of higher end X470 boards as late as April 2019.

[c2c]

guys, I wouldn't panic. ASRock have been good so far updating x370 for example for zen2. What you point out about the bios size is correct and there is no pin change so it wouldn't surprise me if they do push a bios out at the very least for the 256mb capable x470. I'll raise a support ticket now to ask them

[black_zion]

The AIBs can't do anything if AMD refuses to give them the code to implement support, so BIOS size and everything else doesn't even come into the discussion at this point as far as the AIBs go. IF AMD releases the necessary code to them, and that's a huge IF, then BIOS size limitations, forked releases, and everything else come into the discussion, and all the responsibility of implementation is thrown on the AIBs. As of right now, AMD is still refusing to do that much, and if the AIBs attempt to reverse engineer the code they're given for their 500 series products, you'll likely end up with bugs and chaos.

[c2c]

They've already said that some x470 (limited boards/vendors) will be able to decide if they want to release to support so that implies the ability will be there to do it. for high end boards from vendors with bios storage large enough to support it, they will support it, would be crackers not to because they'll not sell as many zen3 chips if they don't. *edit, techspot painted a rather worse picture but some hope here: AMD Zen 3 Ryzen 4000 'Vermeer' Desktop CPUs Will Be Compatible With Existing AM4 Boards 

[hardcoregames_]

black_zion wrote:

The AIBs can't do anything if AMD refuses to give them the code to implement support, so BIOS size and everything else doesn't even come into the discussion at this point as far as the AIBs go. IF AMD releases the necessary code to them, and that's a huge IF, then BIOS size limitations, forked releases, and everything else come into the discussion, and all the responsibility of implementation is thrown on the AIBs. As of right now, AMD is still refusing to do that much, and if the AIBs attempt to reverse engineer the code they're given for their 500 series products, you'll likely end up with bugs and chaos.

even a motherboard is an add-in for a CPU.

BIOS bugs are abundant

[west]

New CPUs and motherboards would be nice of course, but AMD should have given maybe a year (or two) heads - up, that they are going to be releasing motherboards and CPUs, that are not going to be compatible with previous generation. Most users, especially the ones on a budget plan their builds with the intention to keep them for at least 2-3 years.

Nothing wrong with new technology or with consumers (who can afford it) wanting to upgrade more often.

However, many people have b450 and even b350 motherboards. Many bought b450 motherboards last year(and the beginning of this one), including some of my friends and myself.

Also, I think there is a lack of enough mini-itx b550 and x570 motherboards, for the users with smaller builds, particularly the low-end price of $100-$150. There are many people with compact builds (regardless of the budget), but there are also budget users, that ( as I mentioned) are buying, with the intention of keeping their systems for at least 2-3 years, without having to upgrade.

Maybe AMD should let people enjoy their builds and get the most out of them, before introducing new gen stuff, that will require upgrade.

Best thing they could have done is make an announcement in 2019, that they are going to be releasing new tech in 2021-2022, that will require upgrading, then release the upcoming 4000 CPUs in 2020, that will still be compatible.

I had plans on upgrading my current build with the new CPUs, but if they decide not to let motherboard manufacturer release new BIOS update for those CPUs, then I guess my plans on upgrading will have to change.

But, hey, that's just my opinion. I like AMD and new technology, but they could have given us more time and options

[colesdav]

I do not know why no one mentions X470 boards... More expensive and supposed to be "AM4 Socket" upgrade path.
If I had known AMD were inaccurate about that at the time I definitely would have waited for X570 and Ryzen 3000 chips. 
I  would have saved myself lots of debug effort on the Ryzen 2700X + X470 + Memory failure debug. 
It was a ridiculous amount of effort to go through just to get a working PC. 

[c2c]

agree re user experience. I spent so many hours trying to get x370/3700x stable but in the end gave up and went to x470. loads more hours moving all the components out the chassis and back in with new mobo (water cooling too). the thought of that effort being invalid now, particularly since I wanted to avoid an actively cooled chipset keeping with passive x470, would leave me suddenly losing confidence in AMD and I've been a huge supporter of their battle this last decade. not 'pulling an Intel' on profiteering socket/mobo upgrades for every gen, has been a major pillar to hang of for AMD enthusiasts. My guess is Intel would be quite pleased with this and would start to reverse the loss of market share trend as people think "well if AMD are going to keep asking for new motherboards, what really are the advantages of opting for a platform that takes me more work to tweak/maintain?"

[hardcoregames_]

I have a B350, X470 and now X570 so I know all too well about motherboards and their own proclivities.

[steveis2]

Having just bought a B450 motherboard that I wouldn't have bought if I'd known Ryzen 3 was not going to be supported I'm rather disapointed. AMD could have at least told people what was going to happen sooner. Anyway right now I can't see myself forking out again for another motherboard or a new AMD ryzen 3 CPU. I know motherboard CPU support isn't open ended but AMD handled this really badly. But as they won't be getting the money I was going to spend, but am not now going to spend, on a Ryzen 3 CPU at least I have the satisfaction of denying them some of my hard earned cash.

Steve

[c2c]

I'll let you know what ASRock come back to me with. I think there'll be a few of us not upgrading if they don't release at least to 256mb bios 'future proof' boards. If they don't release then I'll wait until am5/zen4/ryzen5000 before the next platform upgrade. pcie 4or5 will have time to mature over that spell too..

[colesdav]

I will open a support case with ASUS about the ASUS ROG CROSSHAIR VII HERO (WI-FI) | ROG - Republic Of Gamers | ASUS USA 

I was intending to upgrade the 2700X processor to Zen 3 if they are worth it.
I will update if I get any information about it, although my guess the answer will be "No".

[barracudax01]

It was exactly what i have planed, i was kinda looking forward to it....If i cant upgrade my 2700x to the Zen 3 CPU, I'll have to keep it for 3-4 years before i upgrade again. because they lied about the upgrade support, you can never believe what they say again, so they they will not be my automatic update in future...!!!

[colesdav]

I think the 3700X is only about + 10% performance improvement versus 2700X so it was not worth upgrading for me, The 2700X has been running at 4.3GHz on Corsair AIO Watercooler anyhow.
I do not need more than 8 cores 16 threads.
I just wanted to see better improvement in performance before upgrading and I was hoping Zen 3 would be the CPU upgrade that would be worth it.
I would still use the 2700X on another new B series motherboard.

[black_zion]

AMD said Zen 3 will be 15-20% faster than Zen 2 and have a 50% higher floating point performance...Even if that turns out to be true, it's still going to make Zen 2 a much better buy for a while while their inventory clears as far as performance per dollar goes.

[hardcoregames_]

black_zion wrote:

AMD said Zen 3 will be 15-20% faster than Zen 2 and have a 50% higher floating point performance...Even if that turns out to be true, it's still going to make Zen 2 a much better buy for a while while their inventory clears as far as performance per dollar goes.

I question the 50% better float performance increase, especially as CPU design is very mature. SSE, SSE2 and so on were more designed early on to improve on rendering performance for spreadsheets and browsers etc.

[blueskies]

The X370 CH6 was updated to support Zen2 about the same time CH7 received the update. I really hope they will update at least the CH7 once AMD releases the AGESA, but they should have no problem updating the X370 too. AMD can't refuse to release the microcode to board makers, it would be hurting their reputation a ton. Let's see what happens as we get closer to release day, perhaps they just need a bit more time to iron things out 

[colesdav]

Gamers Nexus:

AMD Loses Either Way: B450 & Zen 3 Compatibility Deep-Dive, 32MB ROM Issues, & More - YouTube 

[west]

I had contacted MSI, asking if they would collaborate with AMD in providing support for B450 motherboards for the upcoming 4000 CPUs and they replied: ''We are sorry, AMD decided not to support B450 motherboard, we can only follow AMD.''

[colesdav]

Not surprised at all.

[c2c]

had this back from the guys in Holland who are pretty good actually. I still think they will sort it out but he makes a good point about some patience until after release: 

All I know is that at the moment AMD has not announced Zen3 support for 3xx and 4xx chipsets. As long as AMD does not release suitable AGESA code, it is not going to happen. And our HQ in Taiwan will not release any other info about it. I expect that AMD will stick to this at least until release, and maybe a bit longer.

But if their board partners still have a lot of (boards with) older chipsets in stock, then who knows… I really cannot tell.

Kind regards,

ASRock Support

[pokester]

I know that motherboards are really drying up in my town. The 570's are completely sold out and only a few b 450's are available and not the desirable ones. 

[black_zion]

And there's another issue with this whole not supporting X470 thing. That's a top tier X470 board that went on clearance for a really good price at BestBuy. Pair that up with everyone's favorite "budget" processor and you have a very capable base platform that could hold you over until Zen 3 and RDNA2/Ampere with very little loss in investment when you sell the 3600...But alas, due to AMD, no Zen 3 support, so no deal to be had...

[pokester]

That's a high price on the 3600. Those are $159 here at MicroCenter. 

Especially with such a board shortage do to Corona. The really should be trying their best to support the boards they can. Again I get it that some processors may not be able to be supported that may have higher wattage or core counts.

Meanwhile I just got my RMA MSi board back that they swapped and it is dead. Have to send it back again ARGH!

[west]

There is a lot of miscommunication on AMD's part, making this whole situations really bad.

I already mentioned that pretty much many people plan their builds, with the intention to keep them for at least 2-3 years, without having to upgrade. And  honestly that's pretty reasonable ( no matter if it's a processor, motherboard or other pc parts), because upgrading every 1-2 years generally won't give that much of a boost to someone's machine, unless a newly released product will increase your performance a lot. That's why skipping a generation or two makes sense for most people. That also saves money, that can be invested in another upcoming product, eventually.

400 motherboards became really popular around this time last year. 300 boards too, among the most budget oriented  users. As I already mentioned, a year or two heads up from AMD would have helped people, giving them more time to enjoy what they have bought and in the meantime prepare them to be able to buy those upcoming processor and the new motherboards, that will support those new processors.

Also I don't see AMD taking into consideration people with Mini-ITX builds, since they don't really have many x570 Mini-Itx motherboards. Only ASUS with ROG Strix X570-I Gaming ($340 mini-itx) and ROG Crosshair VIII Impact (mini-dtx; could not find price for this one), along with Gigabyte with X570 I AORUS PRO WIFI ($220) are the only Mini-ITX (specifically from the x570, don't know about the upcoming B550 ones). However these are with prices of $220+ and really exclude the very low budget with Mini-ITX builds.

From the Micro-Itx boards - ASRock X570M Pro4  ($180) is the one under $200, but still a bit far from the $100-$150, where is the very entry level price.

From the ATX x570 Motherboards (cheapest ones I found):

MSI
X570-A PRO - $174
MPG X570 GAMING PLUS - $170

ASUS
Asus PRIME X570-P - $160

GiGabyte
X570 GAMING X - $170
X570 UD - $160

ASRock
X570 Pro4 - $160
X570 Phantom Gaming 4 WiFi ax - $160
X570 Phantom Gaming 4 - $160

Not to mention that motherboard manufacturers all stay quiet about that. I mean, if in an absolutely no way some of the older motherboards are going to receive update for the new processors, then those motherboard manufacturers better put a warning on their main pages about that.

So, yeah, what happens is that:

1. No real warning in advance (at least a year) has been done for people to prepare.

2. Users, who just bought a motherboard will have to buy a new one (most likely not a cheap one) or just won't be able to buy a new processor.

3. People with Mini-Itx/Micro-Itx builds are not really considered, especially the low budget ones, which would also force them to change their builds to ATX or exclude them from the new tech as well.

[colesdav]

Yes "miscommunication", "inaccurate" - all polite words for what many really want to say.
If promise upgradeability as a key selling point - better keep to that promise.
They must have known this problem was on the way - based on Ryzen 3000 on B450.

They relied on PC Enthusiasts to put up with lots of bugs, memory compatibility issues etc to promote these processors and motherboards.
Now the job is done, its "Thank you for your Service. Bye."

[hardcoregames_]

colesdav wrote:

Yes "miscommunication", "inaccurate" - all polite words for what many really want to say.
If promise upgradeability as a key selling point - better keep to that promise.
They must kave known this problem was on the way - based on Ryzen 3000 on B450.

They relied on PC Enthusiasts to put up with lots of bugs, memory compatibility issues etc to  promote these processors and motherboards.
Now the job is done, its "Thank you for your Service. Bye."

Bugs? Time for a can of Raid!

[colesdav]

Just saw this:
AMD replied! B450 and X470 WILL RECEIVE Support for Zen 3. AMD Statement in Detail - YouTube 

[colesdav]

Also this: AMD Backtracks: B450, X470 Motherboards WILL Now Support Zen 3! - YouTube 

[colesdav]

If those videos are correct and some older motherboards will get support for Zen3 that is great news.

However.

One way BIOS flash sounds like a very bad idea to me.
I can think of situations where replace I 2700X with Zen 3 on X470.
I then one way flash the motherboard.
I test the PC and find it will not pass MemTest86 pre-boot with the RAM on the motherboard.
What happens then?
Two CPUs + effectively bricked motherboard?
Great.

Whatever solution AMD comes up with it should not be one way only BIOS flash please.

[blueskies]

Yes, AMD did indeed backtrack here! The solution was always going to be slightly rough. Let's give them time to work out the details, I'm happy as long as ASUS makes the beta BIOS available for CH7 within a few months after Zen3 launch. Boards that have BIOS flashback support will probably just release the beta BIOS publicly since the CPU support is not as critical, you can always flash back the previous BIOS if something fails. This was the main reason I got the CH7 :-) 

[colesdav]

I am not sure we know that BIOS flashback to previous CPU will work or be enabled. I guess we will have to wait and see.
I  have ASUS ROG Crosshair Hero VII (WIFI) and MSI Tomahawk B450 motherboards.
I want to upgrade my 2700X CPUs to Zen3 provided the performace uplift is good.

[blueskies]

IIUC the flashback feature bypasses all protections and just overwrites the contents of the BIOS flash. You don't even need a CPU in the socket in order to execute it. I'm not sure if it would even be technically possible to block older BIOSes, since the flashback chip probably doesn't even load the old BIOS to compare version numbers.

[black_zion]

Not for all the people like me who invested heavily into a high end first generation X370 motherboard, we that actually believed them when they said...

Actually now that I look back I bought two X370 motherboards, the first was the ASUS Prime X370-Pro, and after the big fiasco caused by a faulty 1800X that cost me in excess of $200 between RMA shipping and a new Windows 10 license, I took the opportunity to upgrade to the Crosshair VI Hero Wi-Fi since AMD was hammering at the time compatibility with all chipsets and Socket AM4 CPUs....

Unless AMD adds X370/B350 boards to that list, or they issue compensation checks to X370/B350 owners, my next build, which is several years down the road when IPC has exceeded 100% of the Ryzen 3000 series, my next build is going to be Intel out of principle, and I have a feeling there are not a small number of people who feel the way I do.

[colesdav]

That slide shows upgrade to start of 2020,
I understand about X350/B350 owners if they still get left out and they were promised support through 2020.

[colesdav]

Found these:
More AMD CPU Leaks Revealed: Ryzen 2nd Gen Details Plus AM4 And TR4 Socket Life Confirmed? 

https://www.overclock3d.net/news/cpu_mainboard/amd_reaffirms_commitment_to_am4_socket_until_2020/1 

[black_zion]

Put it this way too: I'm planning to upgrade my aging Surface Pro 3 soon too. The decision to pick a Ryzen 3000/4000 or Intel 9/10 series is going to be affected as well.