General Discussions

[lord_tao]

Greetings,

In order for the new 4k Blu Ray drives to work, the CPU needs a special instruction set.  This instruction set has been available on 7th gen Intel CPUs.  However I am wondering if the new AMD processors (finally) have these instruction sets in order to play back these disks?

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure about the CPU, but the GPU has HDCP 2.2 so regardless of the CPU the graphics card can play it and output it unless you mean vega integrated CPU's what are they called 3200G or something like that?

If you were worried about needing special CPU's to play back 4k content, you actually don't so much, lots of CPU's nowadays have HEVC acceleration or hardware decoding though, especially ones with integrated GPU. For example for years intel only made CPU's and didn't have graphics cards but their CPU's had a 4k decoding option you could enable in your mediaplayer software or something like that. Also it was a concern in the past to use the CPU as a copy protection thing, but that was while they were still working on getting enough "copy protection" to make 4k content a viable option for streaming on the desktop. It mostly concerned Netflix and other services streaming their HQ 4k HDR videos to peoples computers and not wanting them stolen. But since edge browsers been able to stream in 4k for a while now though most other browsers couldn't for the longest time dunno if they're still 720p stereo, theres actually a better solution, using the windows 10 store Netflix app gives you better quality and dolby atmos audio and such. If there exists some sort of new 4k Blu-ray disc ROM drive in your computer I doubt it needs a special CPU because the drives aren't built by the CPU manufacturers and then the drive would be useless as majority of the world have very very not high spec computers. The people who have brand new expensive CPU's are like less than the people who own 4k HDR TV's. You don't expect everyone in china and india to afford a high spec brand new computer every time they wanna put in a hard drive or disc drive do you? that's impractical. what good would having a specific CPU even do for the bluray drive lock it into anticompetitive monopoly?

[lord_tao]

Actually the movie industry has DRM on 4k Blu Rays which really do need a special CPU instruction set.  This is beyond HDCp 2.2.  When I got my 6800k (x99 system) I was pretty disappointed when it didnt have the special instructions even though technically being a 7th gen processor.

Pioneer Ultra HD Blu-ray burners pack 4K playback, but good luck meeting the PC requirements - Extre... 

[Anonymous]

I’m Just going to remind you that article about 4k blu-ray players needing special CPU instruction sets was from 2017, the same year that they said “early this year graphics cards and TV’s will all be hdmi 2.1! any minute now!” then you read an article saying “we’ve finally standardized and agreed on HDMI 2.1 so its now a standard that exists.. and then nobody manufactured any HDMI 2.1 hardware chips or shipped them out for several years. At that point in time 4k HDR Netflix streaming may have been impossible in all the browsers. If you search 4k bluray drives for PC use on sites like amazon, theres USB external ones, since USB can be plugged into many devices not just computers, I think there isn’t any requirement about CPU. Also the fact that all the 4k blu-ray drives for PC do not have a single CPU requirement listed in their product description or they wont work for their intended use indicates that at this point in time someones likely not telling the truth here. But yes its true that Microsoft and Hollywood were trying to implement such features into the CPU’s in the past to better “secure” their content and they may do so if they haven’t already but the thing is, it does not seem to be a requirement at all yet. Maybe in another 5 to 10 years time something like that could happen because 90% of the world would then maybe have a CPU with the special DRM but until that time who the hell would sell a product 90% of the world cant even use.. Currently they’re still trying to get people to buy 4k TV’s when they aren’t broadcasting in 4k and now they’ve got 8k tv’s on sale, when was the last time you saw an 8k movie?

[hardcoregames_]

I use Cyberlink which plays CD/DVD/BD/UHD fine.

My CPU, R5 2400G is recent so it has a modern support for what matters to run Windows efficiently

[prof_ratigan]

Do you have the Pioneer BDR-211UBK or LG WH16NS60? That's compatibility I'm curious about.

[hardcoregames_]

I use the LG drive mostly as they are readily available locally

[yusuf91]

The instruction set (Intel SGX) is still not supported by AMD's current Ryzen 3rd generation CPUs.

I have an AMD Ryzen 9 3950x on a Gigabyte Aorus x570 with an Nvidia GTX 1070 and a Pioneer BDR-211UBK. I can only play up to the standard normal Blu rays, not the 4k UHD Blurays. This is using the accompanying software which is Cyberlink.

User eccentric is not up-to-date with the Intel SGX requirements of UHD drives. It doesn't matter if all your components are HDCP ready as long as your UHD drive is deprived of Intel SGX from not having the right CPU and motherboard it won't play 4k Bluray discs.

I don't believe user hardcoregames above is actually able to play 4k Blurays through his drive either. He may be confused by the difference in UHD and just BD discs or he may be playing the normal Bluray discs that come with the 4k discs (pretty much all the 4k Blurays come with a standard normal Bluray as well in the event the buyer cannot play the 4k disc). The page for the LG drive even mentions you are required to have Intel SGX support from a 7th gen Intel CPU or above, so it is not possible he's using an R5 2400G and bypassing the Intel SGX requirement (unless he's using a certain fox software to bypass DRM which is a hit-or-miss for most discs, especially newer releases).

[Anonymous]

It was my understanding that the graphics card companies and Microsoft themselves developed special security measures to allow 4k 10bit HDR content (hollywoods movies and 4k media AKA Netflix, hulu, amazon) play back 4k 10bit HDR HEVC encoded content on PC with copy protection and content protection built in at the hardware level as well as HDCP. Basically the 4k bluray disc to play back you will need the correct software AND the correct drivers and the correct graphics card (pretty much anything that says hardware HEVC decoding same way TV's work once it detects the hardware decoder chip inside the TV Netflix or whatever app with the HEVC passes it to the Realtek or whatever brand of 4k video decoding media chipset is inside for security/decryption and playback) having all this extra additional nonsense by only intel is rubbish as if it only exists in intels CPU's and certain models of 4k drives then its not a standard and is just a brand exclusive feature. If its not on the HDMI forums Blu-ray website Blu-ray.com then its not required to play back Blu-ray discs.

Its true that two models of Blu-ray disc players for PC require you to have a certain model of an intel integrated graphics mother board and in intel CPU for them to work.. But since Blu-ray.com and HDMI forum do not seem to list it in bold on their website as a requirement or a method of playback it seems doubtful especially since from its time of development the intel platform was highly insecure and has been for the last 20 years or so because its all these different design flaws intel has over the last 20 years when they made the standards that left them vulnerable for the entire last 20 years but people only recently published a few articles about them because the attack methods became known and painfully when intel and Microsoft patched them in software it hurt 4k reads and write performance which is every current operating system as larger HDD's and files nowadays require a minimum of 4k sector size partitions. 

You can see proof here that spectre and meltdown and a bunch of other intel security breaches that are built into the hardware and not entirely patchable or correctable without buying a different brand of computer and since intel makes the x86 standards and microprocessor stuff a number of other CPU's were minimally impacted too like ARM and AMD. So yeah because intel gargle man bean bags your mobile phones security is at risk. Anyway heres some stuff on the Blu-ray.com forums claiming they've proven intels SGX is breachable and not safe to use for protected movie content, probably why theres hardly any drives that support it and only certain mainboards support it. 

GitHub - lsds/spectre-attack-sgx: Spectre attack against SGX enclave 

It was also vulnerable to plundervolt the entire time the SGX software was in development and released and was only recently patched.

https://www.darkreading.com/vulnerabilities---threats/intel-issues-fix-for-plundervolt-sgx-flaw/d/d-... 

However although intel issues fixes because its at a hardware or kernel OS level often times the fixes impact performance and speeds and to be honest they may only partly fix it but not really say that. Lots of spectre and meltdown cant be entirely plugged up theres fixes for it but they don't fix everything because its at the hardware level. 

So yeah the reason why nobody wants to touch their SGX rubbish is maybe because intel wants to sell it to them for high prices or it could just be because who wants to pay for insecure extra security features? I sure don't.

Over the last year or two theres been maybe 10 or more exploits and they just keep coming with intels CPU hardware and stupidly a massive number of businesses run intel hardware so yeah. You don't like AMD CPU's because they wont let you pirate 4k Blu-ray movies when a cheap 2nd hand xbox one S would let you play them back probably in better quality and would get frequent software updates and fixes and patches. Heck an xbox one X would be HDMI 2.1 which no current graphics card is. Sure playing back 4k media on PC with daum potplayer or MPC-HC software and processing the image makes things look better, or using your AMD adrenaline software to crank the saturation slightly and set to video classic cinema profile makes it feel better. But you could always still use your purchased 4k disc drive for what it was designed for, copying larger files to or from larger Blu-ray discs. Those drives aren't popular because to play back a 4k disc you just need a 4k disc player and the drives for PC are meant as storage media. Had you been a filmmaker or photographer you would get amazing use from your 4k drive. 

Check out how large the filesizes are on 4k content. 4kmedia.org has some great HEVC 10bit HDR files for download you can playback with daum potplayer and the windows 10 HEVC extensions codec from the windows 10 app store (may cost $1?). I like the travel with my pet or the red bull experience videos on 4kmedia.org

[wiyosaya]

Have a look at https://www.cyberlink.com/products/powerdvd-ultra/spec_en_US.html Go to the PowerDVD Ultra/Live selection and note under Processor

Ultra HD Blu-ray: Intel 7th generation (Kaby Lake) Core i processors and above that support the Intel Software Guard Extensions (Intel SGX) technology.

I have contacted Cyberlink support directly and asked them about supporting AMD procs, and their response was "UHD Blu-ray support is driven by the Bluray association, and SGX is required by the association to play back UHD Blu-ray disks." It has nothing to do with the drive other than you must have, to use PowerDVD to play back UHD Blu-rays, a compliant UHD drive - which are basically BDXL drives with newer firmware.

I am well aware of all the exploits you mention, yet that has not driven the Bluray Association to change their spec.

IMO, AMD needs to come up with something similar and promote that to the Bluray Association for adoption as part of the Bluray spec; otherwise, we're stuck with Intel SGX no matter how many exploits there are.

This all assumes, of course, that you want legal playback. Because of Plundervolt, UHD BR encryption may be broken sometime soon since it has been reported that UHD BR keys are dumped when undervolting.

And BTW - not all of us out there who want to play back UHD BR disks on our PCs want to pirate them.

[hardcoregames_]

BD content protection was broken long ago. I use BD disks as the video quality is markedly better. 4K disks are generally even better.

[hardcoregames_]

SGX was trashed by Meltdown and Spectre

I usually get new BD drives when the new model surfaces mostly as firmware updates are uncommon

I use dual drives mostly to handle feed music to iTunes by the pile

[leyvin]

ACSS 2.0 only requires HDCP 2.2 Support., which you're essentially talking about ANY GPU Architecture from 2015 on-ward. The "SGX Requirement" is quite literally an imposed limitation from certain Blu-Ray Drive Manufacturers (like Pioneer).

No, of course Ryzen doesn't have SGX... nor will it ever., as AMD have their own take on Hardware Security called PSP (Platform Security Processor); which is literally a Secondary (ARM) Processor that handles various Security Element, and for those concerned / curious about ARM being vulnerable to various exploits; keep in mind it's accessible within a Virtualised Environment, so nothing DIRECTLY interacts with it; instead it's gatekept by the Zen Architecture.

Honestly... I don't understand why people care. 

If you want a 4K Movie., purchase it from Microsoft Films... you can download and store them anywhere and you don't need SGX just for Playback, you just need a HDCP 2.2 Compliant Graphics Card. 

Personally I download mine and put them onto SD Cards... about the same damn price as Blu Ray Disks for the same Space., but it's Faster Transfer Speed... it's less likely to be Damaged... it's a Smaller Form Factor... Zero Noise from Playback.

Something I've noticed from ALL BluRay Drives is that they're quite loud during Playback., like obnoxiously so.

Like don't get me wrong, DVD Drives tended to be audible during Playback., especially in quieter scenes of Movie or TV Show ... but Blu Rays are easily twice as loud during their Playback. 

Not sure how anyone could stand that., especially given so much of the Computer over the past Decade has been a dramatic REDUCTION in their Noise Production; like seriously crack out your old Systems from 2010, compare it to your Modern Desktop; and it's like Night-and-Day in terms of Noise (even when Idle; which it will tend to be during Video Playback).

I'd argue it just showcases how Optical Formats are essentially "Dead" for Video Playback Purposes.

As a Storage Media., say for Backup Purposes; sure... decent Cost-to-Space Ratio., although Write Speeds are still awful. Still even then with SD Cards seeing dramatic increases in Space, and their prices continue to fall... it's only a matter of time before there's little cost difference.  

[Anonymous]

Originally intel came up with first few standards about x86 and USB standards and such but then dont share their tech and makes theirs different and keep it all secret when it seems most of it was made from stolen technology or whatever. So with say SD cards theres standards and speeds set with different names of SD cards for speeds like UHS 1 and its up to the maker to design and implement them to meet or exceed those speeds and some companies like sandisk regularly exceed them and maybe even create the standards. But for intel they say "heres our USB standard" then every USB device under the sun is different, with USB chips made for AMD by the same company that makes intels USB chips but they're entirely different somehow different names different models different speeds made much faster but run slower? made more secure but allegedly intel funded studies expose flaws in them and try to blame AMD for it when the USB chip wasnt made by AMD and was made by same company that makes intels USB chips? their standards arent standard at all and intel says their tech is secret and protected IP nobody can use but its an open standard so go build your own to this standard and watch it not work. Every mobile phone under the sun is having often terribly awful USB transfer speeds and entirely different speeds when they all say generically USB 2.0 or USB 1.0.

With intels CPU's they make x86 standards then make some very simple and not particularly useful instruction sets on the end back in the 90's or whatever like MMX and SSE. Because these things are literally just maths and faster ways to do maths though they can say MMX and SSE are their tech and they wont hand it over they make them industry standards and make all the software apps use it in their code and actually do the code for them and hand it to them or pay them to include it or release software themselves and stuff and say "so they're faster" but since its intel tech nobody else can get their hands on AMD have to see what maths it does and test it and do the maths themselves to reverse engineer it and have their own ways of doing exactly the same thing to support MMX and SSE and make their CPU's support/be compatible with it. So SSE and MMX are like maybe 19 or 20 instruction sets long in length, so AMD supports all of intels CPU but then exceeds the standards with like 30 instruction sets long extra of 3dNOW and heaps of other different CPU features and extensions so they've met intels standards and greatly exceeded them but somehow their vastly superior hardware requires software written for it but people just take intel itanium 64bit code and rename it to AMD basically and think "that'll work now its AMD64" because of intels security issues i'm pretty sure the SGX stuff was something intel was forced to implement to protect certain models of their CPU's to make it look like they care about security or they wouldnt be allowed to play back 4k discs at all. Basically intel will say SGX is their tech to protect bluray disc content and then challenge AMD to make a better more secure one based on their standards then they will claim AMD's implementation of their standards was wrong and faulty and is a security risk probably because the standards werent the same as the ones in intel because intel wont let them use the same designs or whatever and claim its their IP and tech make it different but compliant. 

Its a little bit like having a light bulb, Intel first releases an old high wattage power filament bulb with a certain type of socket that gets hot and maybe seems bright but uses lots of power like 120watts or something then AMD is told to make a light bulb but not to use their tech or socket type so AMD makes a low power LED light bulb thats far better but everyone was given free light socket installation or paid to use the lightbulb types of intel by intel saying they're sponsoring them or business partners or whatever and intel is the one who makes the standards so all the businesses must use intel because its safer and better somehow and all the benchmarks of people who dont even know how to install a light bulb or what one is because they're cave men living in the dark show the two light bulbs lighting the exact same small cardboard box and then they say "they both light up the same space so they're the same lights! they're identical in perfomance but i think because AMD LED's use different levels of power AMD's light bulbs must be that much less good than intels wire filament light bulbs all our benchmarks will reflect this"

I think its about intel pretending to be secure so they can claim AMD's security standards are different and less good somehow.

[hardcoregames_]

My old BD drive is not able to play 4K discs. So I need to get a new one to support 4K, bit I am not in any rush as the price for 4K disks is still way out of line.

My machine otherwise is fine for 4K video content.

[Anonymous]

For hollywood 4k bluray discs the costs were absurdly high in australia for a long time but now im seeing 2 for $40AUD or some older titles for around $10 in sales so going to a second hand store can actually get you a pretty affordable buy for a lot of 4k disc titles lately. Since the second hand store is an australian retailer with a receipt you can just take it home and watch it to ensure it works and if it doesnt with the receipt sales laws/warranty should cover being sold defective goods or whatever so u could swap it for one that does work if its recently purchased nobody could take an issue with expecting a product you paid for to work so i find buying second hand 4k discs for the price you'd pay to rent one not too bad for a recent hollywood big name title or two. I've not looked in to pricing for recordable disc meda or whats available or if its available.. but I'm sure theres stuff out there for industry/commercial use thats probably way cheaper than when DVD/original 1080p bluray media first hit the scene or when 4k discs first went on sale. give it time and the prices should drop sharply, if you use like an 8k Cinema camera and shoot in log and master in 10bit HDR or are just working with very large file sizes in business/industry theres heaps of alternative transport and storage methods available to you. Nowadays 10 or 12TB spinning disc drives with overlapping drive tracks making them slower to write and read but still fully functional are quite affordable and portable and NVME drives and SSD drives in a few months time will be available in 8TB versions too so in terms of cost per gigabyte of storage, portability/transfer speeds and storage life and read/write ability you may be better off avoiding optical media unless its for say a wedding photographer or film maker providing 4k discs to clients. in which case theres no issue using the 4k burners probably as i believe the SGX is for playback of protected content only.

[hardcoregames_]

Here in Canada a 4K AAA film is $40+ with taxes, its brutal