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Red Rig Showcase

colesdav
MVP

Maximus

Description


Ryzen Build 1.

I was hoping to be able to use X570 + Ryzen 3rd Gen Processor but I cannot hold off any longer.

I have decided to build X-470 + Ryzen 2700X now..

I do not have the case yet, it is on it's way - here is a 'stock picture' of the case for now.

Maximus1.jpg

Specifications

CPURyzen 2700X
CoolerCorsair H100i
MotherboardROG CROSSHAIR VII HERO WIFI
Memory64GB (4x16GB) Corsair Vengeance RGB Pro 3200 DDR4.
GraphicsPalit RTX 2080 OC Primary and XFX RX Vega 64 Liquid Secondary, for now. Radeon VII next.
Disc Drive 1Seagate FireCuda 2TB SSHD. Windows 10 64bit OS. Nvidia Drivers for RTX2080OC.
Disc Drive 2Seagate FireCuda 2TB SSHD. Windows 10 64bit OS. AMD Drivers for RX Vega 64 Liquid.
Disc Drive 3Seagate 5TB Portable Red to hold Video and Game Libraries. 
PSUCorsair AX1600i
CaseCorsair 500D Obsidian RGB SE Mid Tower Case - Black
Monitor

BenQ - EW3270U 32" HDR LED 4K UHD FreeSync Monitor - Metallic Gray

FansAdditional Corsair HD120 RGB Fans used in the H100i Cooler.
Keyboard.Hope to purchase a Corsair Strafe MK2.
Capture CardInvestigating Elgato and Avermedia devices for 4K60 FPS.
81 Replies
colesdav
MVP

I am having trouble getting recommended DRAM from Corsair.
I will update the details later.

Hopefully someone will be able to help me out with advice.

This will be my first AMD processor build for years. I normally run PC's with Intel i7-4700K and i7-4790K.

It was time to upgrade the CPU.

colesdav
MVP

Motherboard arrived today, some unboxing shots below:

PictureMB1.jpgPictureMB2.jpg

Not sure what to do with all of these though ...


20190127_020817.jpg

PSU Arrived. Corsair AX1600i. Here are some screenshots:

20190127_120629.jpg

Contents:

20190127_121207.jpg20190127_121231.jpg

AX1200i box contents. Note 3 different magnetic stickers:
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I have a three drawer (formica surfaced) former nightstand that we got at a thrift shop fro ten bucks that I keep my soldering gear and misc electronics prototyping stuff in (parts, breadboards, etc), that I put stickers on, and the Corsair 380T portable rig on top of.  Has ThinkGeek's sticker, a Rockit Cool sticker (delidding tools), an MSI Twin Frozr VI sticker, and a Asus ROG sticker on.

You might consider something similar.

colesdav
MVP

I decided to purchase a Seagate 5 TB external backup drive to use as high capacity storage instead of purchasing an internal 2.5" or 3.5" high capacity drive. The cost per TB of these Seagate USB drives is pretty low in comparison. I managed to get one in ~ 'AMD Red'. It will be fitted inside the cse somewhere.

20190127_122146.jpg

colesdav
MVP

Ram arrived today:
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colesdav
MVP

I decided to use a spare H100i unstead of the Ryzen 2700X Cooler.

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colesdav
MVP

The case arrived today. There are some really nice features such as a removable mounting bracket for fans or AIO radiators.
Here is a picture of the H100i connected to the removable mounting bracket.

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colesdav
MVP

Here is the bracket and cooler fitted into the top of the case. There is a large black bolt on the top left of this picture which is used to hole the mounting bracket in.
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And here is the other bolt on the RHS:
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colesdav
MVP

I added a pair of Corsair RGB fans instead of using the default fans that were supplied with the Corsair H100i Cooler. 
Also note I decided to fit one of my PowerColor R9 Nanos just to provide some initial Video at boot up.

pastedImage_1.jpg

colesdav
MVP

If you look to the left of the R9 Nano there is a Vertical GPU Mounting Bracket fitted into the case.
I get a feeling that will get filled with something.
Here is a close up of the bracket.

pastedImage_1.png

kc5vdj
Elite

Nice rig!  How are you liking that case?

Hi, thank you for your interest in this build. 


The case is absolutely excellent. I have built a fair number of PC's in the past. Favourite cases for me have been Corsair Obsidian 800D and 650D.  
This Corsair Obsidian 500D RGB  has been really well thought out, especially cable management, inclusion of Corsair Commander Pro and additional RGB headers.

This case is especially good for Dual AIO Liquid Cooled GPU's as well.
Cable management feature at the rear of the PC and disk mounting points have also been very well thought out.

I think this is an ideal case for an AMD user wanting a Ryzen Desktop Processor with Dual RX Vega 64 Liquids for example.   

 

There are a few minor points I would improve. I would have liked the PSU enclosure to be higher and a bit longer. is difficult to slide the PSU into the PSU enclosue without damaging the paint on the top of the AX1600i PSU. A smaller PSU like a Corsair SF600 or SF750 would be no problem.  
Also there is a 'blemish' on the PSU enclosure - looks like some metalwork didn't get smoothed off. I didn't think it was worth returning the case for though.
  
The AX1600i PSU will be used to stress test an XFX RX Vega 64 liquid in an all AMD build because the GPU has been unstable and unreliable in other Intel i7-4790K and 4770K PC's I run, even with brand new AX1200i PSU's. If the XFX RX Vega 64 Liquid is stable with the AX1600i I will be removing it and replacing with a new AX1200i for this build and testing the XFX RX Vega 64 Liquid on that AX1200i PSU instead. 

I will be posting some more screen shots later and discuss the mostly excellent features of the case and the few things I would improve.

I will also be overclocking the Ryzen Processor and running a number of 3DMark benchmarks with various AMD GPU's. My existing scores have been limited by the Physics Scores achievable with an i7-4790K, as it has only 4 cores, 8 threads. It will be interesting to see for myself how well an overclocked Ryzen  2700X will help with my benchmark scores. 

Thanks again. 

kc5vdj
Elite

I have the 750D and 380T from Corsair, and love them.  I will probably be getting the last bits that I need to get the glass mod done for the 750D: metal cutting jigsaw blades, some reinforced dremel cutoff wheels, some round files, some rubber u-channel (found something for cars that looks like it would work), and lastly, the 3M surface prep stuff for VHB tape.  I already have the glass from One Day Glass, brand new solid side panel, and the VHB tape (15 yards of it).  This needs to be done, because after four years, the acrylic is has all sorts of hairline scratches, and the case is still perfectly fine, so no sense in putting my Z97 system in a new case.

I'll add that I have done some in-case mounting using little bits of the VHB tape.  I can highly recommend it, it's some really strong stuff.  They use it to do rivetless mounting on stuff like signs, siding for busses and RVs, semi trailers, and to hang glass on skyscrapers.

Thank you for the advice about the glass mod.

That has me thinking. 

I will not be modding this case for "Maximus", but I need to do some acrylic side panel mods for  my other machines using Corsair Obsidian 800D and Corsair Obsidian 650D cases. 

Reason is run multiple GPUs on each machine for rendering and compute.

Also some Corsair Obsidian 650D and even 800D machines have dual AIO liquid cooled GPUs, and, unfortunately one AIO cooler has to sit outside those

cases. So they currently run with the side panels off, which is not ideal. 

I do not want to drill or modify the case metalwork at all. 
I also need to run additional PCIe Power connectors outside the PC Case for additional GPU's connected using Thunderbolt 1/2/3 enclosures and also mining adapters. I run up to 5 GPU's off each machine when I need to.

I wish case manufacturers would provide more capability to route additional power cables for external GPU's out from bottom of PC cases.

Thanks. 

colesdav
MVP

I have not been reporting much work regarding this build for past few days.
I have been running PassMark MemTest86 on the Corsair Vengeance RAM.
The RAM is very expensive and I wanted to make sure the RAM is OK before I proceed to benchmarking.
I have had previous bad experience with a single bad 8GB Crucial Ram stick on a PC with 32GB RAM total, so I always check RAM during a build.

MemTest86 is free for non-commercial use.
You can download it here:

MemTest86 - Official Site of the x86 Memory Testing Tool 

I have been testing the PC with a single 16GB memory stick installed in the PC. 

Just FYI a single run of Memtest 86 is taking 5 hours when run on the Ryzen 2700X using 8 cores and 16 threads.
I should have testing completed today.

My next step is to test the RX Vega 64 Liquid GPU with this build.
I will remove the Palit RTX 2080 OC GPU, which has been running with no problems at all. 
I will install the RX Vega 64 Liquid.
Since I do not trust the RX Vega 64 Liquid based on previous experience with running it on my other PC machines I will be removing my existing Windows 10 64bit OS disk and use a different disk with a completely fresh installation of Windows 10 and latest AMD Adrenalin 2019 drivers to test this setup.

I will report what works and what does not work during testing on this page.

colesdav
MVP

Here is a picture of 'Maximus' with all of the RGB lighting set to "Unicorn Barf".

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I promise I will set everything to a nice AMD Red next time ... and put the RX Vega 64 Liquid in there.

darkwolfca
Miniboss

great build love the fans really clean looking

Thank you. 

I will upload some example videos showing the performance I get running games and applications on this build as soon as possible. 
I have had some delay due to the failed Corsair RAM stick and debug and RMA. I will report that testing as well here in an attempt to help others out in future. The build is pretty much finished now. 
I added another Windows 10 drive. 
I now have two Windows 10 OS drives on the same machine.
One Windows 10 OS has Nvidia Drivers for the RTX2080OC.
The other Windows 10 OS has  AMD Adrenalin 2019 19.2.3 Drivers for the RX Vega 64 Liquid.
I did this because I need to test the GPU's and ensure Nvidia & AMD drivers on same OS don't cause problems.
Also the RX Vega 64 Liquid has been crashing liots on Adrenalin 19.2.1. drivers.   
I am running both cards in PCIe3.0 x8  with the RX Vega 64 as the secondary GPU.
I can obviously pull out one or other GPU as necessary and also locate the RX Vega 64 Liquid in primary slot and run it at PCIe3.0x16, if I really think it is needed. 
Finally I might attempt to add a third GPU in vertical case mount or I may use that for an Elgato or Avermedia 4K 60FPS capture card.


Bye.   

colesdav
MVP

I have opened the following thread to discuss problems with Corsair Vengeance RGB and Corsair Vengeance PRO RGB RAM kits failing Memtest 86 here: Asus ROG Crosshair Hero VII, Ryzen 2700x, Corsair Vengeance RGB (Pro) 3200 4x16GB Memtest86 failures... 

I am now on my second RMA with Corsair to find a working 4x16GB 3200 memory kit.


If anyone can help with advice about getting this build completed or getting the Corsair RAM kits to pass Memtest86 by changing RAM timings or settings in BIOS I would be grateful  for advice on this one. 

Two failing kits in a row seems very unusual to me. 

Thanks. 

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billthecat
Adept I

 Sounds like a cool computer. Too bad you couldn't wait for the Zen 2 line of CPU' but you can always upgrade later. Me when I got this computer I got the first gen. 6 core RYZEN because for one reason I planed on waiting until the Zen 2 cpu was done and planed way back then I was going to be upgrading and I saw that it would be fast enough to hold me over until the Zen 2 was on the market.

  I've got a RX 580 Video card and most likely will get a Navi based GPU card when they are released for sale. I've also been a big fan of PC Power and Cooling power supplies though I don't know now how they are doing after they got bought by another company but they used to be the best way back when I got a few of them for a couple of computers I was building. After all this time they are still working great and one is so old I think it's filter caps might dry out after all the years.. Who knows?

  My only suggesting comment would be to go with the cheapest cpu that can do and then replace it with the Zen 2 when they are available. It's kind of what I went with when I built this system but hey, just a thought..

Thanks.

Yes it is a pity that I could not purchase a "Zen 2" but I needed this PC working fast and I was hoping that since the CPU and motherboard have been out for a while that I would not hit any problems.

The build was and is  pretty simple and easy - nothing fancy in terms of additional Raid Controllers or SSD accellerated Hard Drives, no external GPUs and no Thunderbolt cards available for AMD platform yet.

The more I look into it the RAM compatibility issues with Ryzen 2700x and X470 motherboards I think it is better I did not move to Zen 2 early, unless AMD have done more to improve this situation  It is starting to look like the Corsair RAM Selector advice I used to select Vengeance RGB 3200MHz 4x16GB memory may have been incorrect or there are many technical problems with Ram compatibility. This means low user choice of RAM to purchase. More information here: Asus ROG Crosshair Hero VII, Ryzen 2700x, Corsair Vengeance RGB (Pro) 3200 4x16GB Memtest86 failures... 


RE getting Navi - yes well let's hope Navi is a success and that it is launched well with plenty of GPU's available to purchase.  
I purchased a Radeon VII immediately at launch but ... the GPU didn't exist and so i had to cancel the order.  It was going to go in this build.
I also have a new RX Vega 64 Liquid which has sat unused for months because it is so unstable with AMD drivers I tried (Adrenalin / Adrenalin 2019) on my Intel PC builds. 


RE cool computer. - It is far too cool at the moment.
I was hoping to test the RX Vega 64 in this build but the "Maximus" machine has either been used to run required Memtest86 tests for Corsair RMA or the RAM has been removed and I wait for replacement. The plan was to test the RX Vega 64 Liquid in an all AMD build with latest Adrenalin 2019 drivers and if it is no better, RMA it. I will be testing that when I get the next RAM kit from Corsair as I need to make a final decision on what to do with the RX Vega 64 Liquid. If I RMA it, very unlikely I will be able to replace it with another as they EOL'ed less than 6 months after launch. I do not want to purchase any of the AIB RX Vega 64's.

RE: My only suggesting comment would be to go with the cheapest cpu

I have alredy purchased a Ryzen 2700x for this build. 

Hopefully the next Corsair RAM kit I get will work or I will get a refund and find some 4x16GB Ram kit that does work correctly with this Asus motherboard and Ryzen 2700X CPU.

Thanks.

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colesdav
MVP

colesdav
MVP

RAM issues "resolved" for now: See https://community.amd.com/thread/237823 

I will be testing RX Vega 64 Liquid next.

colesdav
MVP

As mentioned before I have an RX Vega 64 Liquid purchased new direct from retail in ~ November 2018. I originally installed it on a PC with an  i7-4790K, replacing a pair of R9 Fury X GPU's which themselves are not the most stable or supported GPU's on AMD Drivers. The RX Vega 64 Liquid has so far been a major disappointment. It has been so unstable on the available AMD drivers I removed it, ordered a Palit RTX2080 OC for this build , and refitted a pair of R9 FuryX back into the i7-4790K machine instead. The intention was to test the RX Vega 64 Liquid in this AMD Ryzen build by end January. Unfortunately due to at least  2 months of problems with the Ryzen 2700X/ Asus Motherboard and Corsair RAM compatibility I have not had time or been able to use the RX Vega 64 Liquid at all.  The card has sat unused since early January after I received the RTX2080OC in December. This is my first test of the RX Vega 64 Liquid GPU for months.I am hoping the card will perform better on Ryzen 2700X with latest AMD Drivers. One issue I had previously was this: AMD Adrenalin 2019 18.12.3 Automatic Overclock on RX Vega 64 Liquid = Black Screen & System hang. - ... . It will be interesting to see if Automatic Overclocking works now, over 4 months since reporting it. Other issues have been random black screening and color distortion/ flashing when running games like BFV and BF1.

The RX Vega 64 Liquid is practically brand new (it was purchased from a retailer) and has had light use for about 1 month since purchase. These following tests will be  last chance saloon for the card. I will attempt to return it if it constantly crashes like before. It cost only 20 less than the Palit RTX 2080 OC GamingPro. I am trying to find a reason to keep the RX Vega 64 Liquid.

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colesdav
MVP

Here is a picture of the RX Vega 64 Liquid placed in the Primary Motherboard slot replacing the Palit RTX 2080 OC GamingPro.
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Wish me luck ...

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colesdav
MVP

I am testing the RX Vega 64 Liquid with a clean install of the latest AMD Adrenalin 2019 19.4.1 Driver:

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colesdav
MVP

Here is a table showing the performance of the RX Vega 64 Liquid running 3DMark Tests.

Test

RX Vega 64 LiquidRTX 2080 OCScore Comparison

TimeSpy

AMD Radeon RX Vega 64 Liquid video card benchmark result - AMD Ryzen 7 2700X,ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. R... NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 video card benchmark result - AMD Ryzen 7 2700X,ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. ROG CR... Result 

TimeSpy Extreme

AMD Radeon RX Vega 64 Liquid video card benchmark result - AMD Ryzen 7 2700X,ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. R... NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 video card benchmark result - AMD Ryzen 7 2700X,ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. ROG CR... Result 

FireStrike

AMD Radeon RX Vega 64 Liquid video card benchmark result - AMD Ryzen 7 2700X,ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. R... NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 video card benchmark result - AMD Ryzen 7 2700X,ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. ROG CR... Result 

FireStrike Extreme

AMD Radeon RX Vega 64 Liquid video card benchmark result - AMD Ryzen 7 2700X,ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. R... NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 video card benchmark result - AMD Ryzen 7 2700X,ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. ROG CR... 4Result 

FireStrike Ultra

AMD Radeon RX Vega 64 Liquid video card benchmark result - AMD Ryzen 7 2700X,ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. R... NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 video card benchmark result - AMD Ryzen 7 2700X,ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. ROG CR... Result 

VRMark Orange Room

AMD Radeon RX Vega 64 Liquid video card benchmark result - AMD Ryzen 7 2700X,ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. R... NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 video card benchmark result - AMD Ryzen 7 2700X,ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. ROG CR... Result 

VRMark Cyan Room

AMD Radeon RX Vega 64 Liquid video card benchmark result - AMD Ryzen 7 2700X,ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. R... NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 video card benchmark result - AMD Ryzen 7 2700X,ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. ROG CR... Result 

VRMark Blue Room

AMD Radeon RX Vega 64 Liquid video card benchmark result - AMD Ryzen 7 2700X,ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. R... NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 video card benchmark result - AMD Ryzen 7 2700X,ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. ROG CR... Result 

The Ryzen 2700X is running at a fixed base clock of 4.3GHz, as that seems to be the stable performance limit.
I have 64GB of Corsair Vengeance Pro RGB fitted and running at 3200MHz using manual memory overclock settings.
I will show the overclock settings I used on both GPU next. 

I forgot to mention I turned on HBCC to allow the RX Vega 64 Liquid to use 16GB of DRAM for the above tests which should give the RX Vega 64 Liquid an advantage over the RTX2080 in terms of VRAM Capacity.

I make no comment on the benchmark results, other than to say the RX Vega 64 Liquid loses very single one.

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colesdav
MVP

For reference only.

The RTX 2080OC used the supplied Thunder Master software to automatically overclock the GPU Clock  by 9% with no issues.
I added an additional 5% Manual Memory Overclock of 5%.
There is still room for more Memory Clock OC on this card but 5% is my normal limit.
The resulting GPU Speeds are shown in the results tables above.

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colesdav
MVP

I tried automatic GPU overclocking on the RX Vega 64 Liquid.
It crashed.
This time no BSODS, just black screen and PC hang  / crash.
In effect, same failing behaviour as was demonstrated to AMD 4 months ago, except this time it did not take out my Windows 10 PRO OS with it.
I will file yet another AMD Reporting form.

Here is the button not to press:
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colesdav
MVP

AMD Reporting form submitted about the Automatic Overclock GPU submitted.

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colesdav
MVP

Color Distortion and flashing still happening when running BFV.
Here is a quick picture - you can see a green square in the top right corner of the screen:

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It spreads across the screen: pastedImage_2.png

Filling it:
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Then dissapearing:
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colesdav
MVP

Regarding BFV I actually managed to complete "Tiger" on Easy mode with only one crash running the RX Vega 64 Liquid at 4K Ultra. That is an improvement on last time I tried with older drivers. The Green Flashing happened throughout though and it is annoying.

Perhaps I am clocking the HBM too high?
It is running at 1100MHz.

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colesdav
MVP

Here are the RX Vega 64 Liquid Overclock Settings I used based on last time I tried to use this GPU:

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I set the HBM2 frequency to 1100. I increased the GPU CLK by 0.5% as increasing it further causes worse results.
Fan is set to 100% in an attempt to keep temps down.
I used a 25mV undervolt on Power States 6 and 7. Any more than that and  GPUthe is pretty much guaranteed to cause game and/or PC system crash. 
I did not undervolt the HBM2 in the above example although I have played around with that in the past. I used ~ 25mV undervolt in the past but it really didn't seem to make a conclusive difference.

I have the BIOS set to High performance so the GPU is burning 340 to 350 Watts.

Any ideas on improving the performance / stability of the RX Vega 64 Liquid welcome.

One good point is The RX Vega 64 Liquid is supported in Blender 2.79b for OpenCL GPU Rendering  wheras the Nvidia RTX 2080 OC is not supported at all. 
However the RTX 2080  GPU Rendering is supported and working in Blender 2.80 Beta.

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colesdav
MVP

Fitted the RX Vega 64 Liquid as a secondary GPU for now. At least it can be used for Blender.
The Radiator Hoses on the RX Vega 64 Liquid block the vertical GPU Mounts on the side of the case so I will not be able to fit another GPU.
That's this build done for now.
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colesdav
MVP

Update:

I have been testing a couple of different GPU Setups recently.
I removed the Nvidia RTX2080OC GPU for a few days to test this.

I am able to DX11 Crossfire these two GPUs with the Adrenalin 19.8.2 Driver.

pastedImage_1.png

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colesdav
MVP

I have been testing various GPU Configurations on Maximus, most recently I have been running a Quad R9 Fury X setup.

The results were generated with 4 R9 Fury X connected to Asus ROG Crosshair VII Motherboard using ADT-Link via PCIe3.0x4 interface and Ryzen 2700X
ADT-Link information here: Has anyone tried ADT-link R43SG M.2 PCIe 3. x4 / NVMe to external GPU with X-470 motherboards? 

The Fury Xs are connected as follows.

 
1. Top PCIE_16 Slot running at PCIe 3.0x8 - PowerColor R9 Fury X.

2. Middle PCIE_16 Slot running at PCIe 3.0x8. - PowerColor R9 Fury X. 

3. Bottom PCIE_16 Slot running at PCIe 2.0x4. - Sapphire R9 Fury X.
4. Bottom M.2 PCIe3.0 slot connected via ADT-Link running at PCIe.3.0x4. - Sapphire R9 Fury X.


I am using HBM overclocking of the R9 Fury X HBM with Sapphire Trixx v5.2.1 to achieve these results.
I have to use an old version of AMD Crimson ReLive driver (16.12.2) to do this.
HBM overclocking on R9 Fury X was locked down in later AMD Drivers before Vega launched.
I am not using any AMD PowerPlay Table Modifications or BIOS Modifications.
The GPU BIOS are all the original BIOS that came with the cards.

Here are the scores:

 

colesdav-Ryzen7 2700X-4*R9 FuryX -31 204-Firestrike

AMD Radeon R9 Fury X video card benchmark result - AMD Ryzen 7 2700X,ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. ROG CROSS...

 

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colesdav-Ryzen7 2700X-4*R9 FuryX -26 729-Firestrike Extreme

AMD Radeon R9 Fury X video card benchmark result - AMD Ryzen 7 2700X,ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. ROG CROSS... 


pastedImage_3.png

 

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colesdav-Ryzen7 2700X-4*R9 FuryX -16 402-Firestrike Ultra

AMD Radeon R9 Fury X video card benchmark result - AMD Ryzen 7 2700X,ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. ROG CROSS... 


pastedImage_6.png

 

 

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colesdav-Ryzen7 2700X-4*R9 FuryX -16 803-TimeSpy
AMD Radeon R9 Fury X video card benchmark result - AMD Ryzen 7 2700X,ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. ROG CROSS... 

 

pastedImage_7.png

 

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colesdav-Ryzen7 2700X-4*R9 FuryX - 8220 TimeSpy Extreme
AMD Radeon R9 Fury X video card benchmark result - AMD Ryzen 7 2700X,ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. ROG CROSS... 

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