15 Replies Latest reply on May 29, 2018 8:29 PM by m3tho5

    Goodbye, Radeon, and your false promises.

    max0x7ba

      I was excited about Vega. They touted it as good at gaming and great for compute. And I waited for it, mostly because I had my top-of-the-range 2-year-old Freesync monitor and wanted to keep using it.

      Vega is good for gaming, true, but not the best. I no longer care what future holds for DirectX 12 and Vulkan because few of the top games use that. I want existing software using DirectX 11 and OpenGL to work great on AMD. I cannot trust AMD on promises of great performances in DirectX 12 and Vulkan because their implementations of DirectX 11 and OpenGL has always been sub-optimal and often critisized. But I sure can trust a company that has always had great DirectX 11 and OpenGL implementations that they can make equally great DirectX 12 and Vulkan ones.

      Now that I do machine learning, I wanted to use my Vega for its much touted compute capability. All modern machine learning frameworks, such as TensorFlow/Keras, Caffe, Torch can use GPUs to dramatically speed up computations. They all support GPUs out of the box. It was a nasty surprise for me that they all expect the GPU to support CUDA. None of the frameworks can use OpenCL.

      AMD is trying to make these machine learning frameworks utilize AMD hardware, but the support is rather poor, see the current state of it over at Deep Learning on ROCm. AMD hardware and OpenCL are currently useless for machine learning, unless one is willing to build their own machine learning framework from scratch.

      The fact that I cannot use this record-breaking theoretical compute capability for machine learning is a failure of AMD, no one else's. Even more so because AMD was making a lot of noise about its machine learning capabilities and its Instinct series targeted specifically for machine learning. I am pretty sure now that AMD's "new era of Deep Learning" translates to "none of the existing deep learning software works with AMD". This is the point I am most unhappy about. What is the use of "World’s Fastest Training Accelerator for Machine Intelligence and Deep Learning" if little software can utilise that? IMO, AMD should be throwing money at popular projects to make them support AMD as a 1st class citizen.

      Just rage-swapped my RX Vega 64 LC for NVidia 1080Ti and thought I bricked my PC because I could not hear it. Turned out that the air-cooled 1080Ti at 2000MHz is much quieter than the liquid cooled RX Vega 64 LC at 1670Mhz.

      And the most amazing thing is that all GPU-accelerated software now just works.

      In Primitive Discarding in Vega: Mike Mantor Interview at 8:30 Mike says that Vega exceeds 1700MHz and they run it "at least 1700Mhz", however, I was not able to observe that in games, no. 1700Mhz is about the max my liquid cooled Vega can do when under-volted, with stock voltages it hovers around 1650MHz. The VRAM goes from 945Mhz to 1050MHz easily on my sample though, with no other adjustments.

      Just a bit unhappy that AMD marketing got me with their hot air. Stop saying that AMD marketing isn't good or effective. #makesomenoise

        • Re: Goodbye, Radeon, and your false promises.
          pokester

          I absolutely would agree with you on most your points here. When AMD releases a product it is the expectation that the product should work as promised. Especially almost a year later. Many of us are aggravated by the current state of the drivers. None of us bought BETA hardware. Certainly the extremely high cost of ownership these days dictates, something better.

           

          Now, not to make excuses as AMD has plenty of faults here too. But it is important to realize some other truths also. nVidia has to hold, a lot of the blame for where things are right now in regard to gaming and professional graphics. Historically AMD has a history of sharing it's new technologies and them becoming OPEN standards. Nvidia does not! They keep things proprietary, so when industries support proprietary options then it leaves only one choice. Lack of choice is always bad for consumers. The industry needs to catch up with support for Open CL. This is not AMD's fault, but theirs. Yes AMD needs to get there drivers rock solid too!

           

          Next is the whole grass is greener complex. I have been listening for years about how bad AMD drivers are and until the past several months that has not been true (at least not since before AMD bought ATi), but unfortunately it is pretty ugly right now. That being said, I originally came to AMD because of bad nVidia drivers, and I have two current generation machines at home with an RX 580 and one with an 1050 Ti. I can tell you they both have driver issues with some games, some games both companies have issue with, warcraft, pubg and GTA5 come to mind, so are those driver issues or game engine issues. This is the next issue many games pick a side to be better optimized for. You will often see an AMD or nVidia splash screen boasting this fact when you launch a game. It is a shame they don't do better making sure the games work to the standard in addition to specific hardware and know driver optimizations. Both sides are guilty of this.  I will say however that as of late the nVidia experience at least at my household has been more pleasant. I am glad I don't count on either for professional work.

           

          I absolutely respect where you are coming from, we all vote with our dollars. I have the AMD card I have now because I had great experiences with last few AMD cards and bought a FreeSync monitor (like you did), followed a couple months later by the RX 580. Given the issues I have personally dealt with since last November, in hindsight I don't know that I would not have gone another route.

          • Re: Goodbye, Radeon, and your false promises.
            plumboby

            meeh no diffrence between brands tho AMD been so far so good more transparent & better. Was a long time Nvidia user but will never go back coz there software & drivers have become horrible & they are locking forums. Btw I am changing all my cards to AMD switched out 2 Crapvidias to A RX560 in my main pig & a R7 360 in my stepsons so far so good & driver wise for mentioned games have been actually been ok. I have had my teething problems with AMD blaming drivers for my hardware was at fault. Thing I found is AMD is picky on what it uses dont use cheap crap & the software that AMD runs is far superior than any 3rd party crap you need to actually unlock Crapvidia cards. I got 2 out crapvidia cards throwing issues in 2 other stepsons builds & be switching them out as they drivers are blue screen & random PC crashs which I have found crapvidia are locking forums as info being posted not letter there dodgy secretes out. Next few months AMD are pulling there fingers out to sort a lot of driver & game related, preformance issues. So far I havnt had problems now I found my issues but happy since changing. yeah they use a bit more power but the benefits of AMD outweighs secretcy of Crapvidia as they will always be like that. Hoping AMD has a killer year against Craptel & crapvidia as both brands both have screwed the market for to long & payed off to many of the competiton coz they wanna hold the markets for ever. I am switching everything to AMD for future proofing as AMD is where its at now & respecting the gains preformance & everything they are doing & open transparentcy they have shown with there releases with OC & other things. You dont get many companies who actually do this was originally sceptical but they have won my respect so will be an avid user to the end of time now. All brands have there issues but so far I hope AMD keep gaining to actually make the playing field more even. Since AMD latest release prcing of Craptel older gen & new gen CPU's & MB have absolutely crapped out, was actually just searching to see how the pricing is for a upgrade for another build, but atm its hard to find any Ryzens in NZ atm or MB as all sold out yet endless supply of i3/i5 filthy cheap which is scarry which is why when I build I be going Ryzen.

            • Re: Goodbye, Radeon, and your false promises.
              nday

              Agree with you but by another reason. When i used dell with integrated intel+geforce - i never expectated any problems with gaming(well, low perfomance which is maximum for that gpu is ok), but yesterday i bought dell with intel+amd r7 m445 and i spent 7-8(!!) hours to just make it working in games instead of intel graphics, and their own tool still shown that i have m440 one instead m445, wut?? but okay, i can don't mind about that, but holy cow, why i need always add by hands .exe files in their tool to force it for working with amd gpu?
              it's not a deal
              i'll never buy amd again, not only laptop tandem as intel+amd but also for desktop gpu or cpu, now i can't trust them at all.

              • Re: Goodbye, Radeon, and your false promises.
                brucer

                I switched to green in my gaming rigs a couple years ago and never looked back.. I had some bad experiences with a fury, fury-x and rx480, all in a row, so I swapped to green and have never been happier with my gaming experience and one click driver installs are pretty nice..

                 

                The only thing I do with amd cards now, is mine, and they dont do that the best any more.

                  • Re: Goodbye, Radeon, and your false promises.
                    pokester

                    I'm sure glad you found a solution that works for you, that is the important part. At different points I have had issue with every card maker, ones long before nVidia and ATI now AMD, such as, Voodoo, S3 ( I helped run a S3 review and fan site for years, Savage News), Power VR all had their troubles too.

                    I like the path of least resistance too! I want to play my games not figure out problems. I have learned now though that things seem to go full circle again and rolls can easily be reversed. So I never say never, what works to day many not tomorrow. Enjoy your gaming and thanks for stopping by and sharing your experience.

                  • Re: Goodbye, Radeon, and your false promises.
                    plumboby

                    Crapvidia drivers are a joke the cards are over priced junk trust me on that wouldn't touch 1 ever again & need 3rd party crapware to unlock crapvidia where AMD you dont. For me AMD is win win win they supply the software with a decent card & AMD cards are so under rated considering. Green is junk wouldn't even use 1 as a paperweight, its funny tho how many in the last 3 months i know all gone to team red, enjoy the fun off locked forums & Crapvidia secretcy which does happen locked forums when issues or secretes arrive, PCs getting nuked by dud drivers which i know alot have gone down. Nvidia is no better but enjoy there over priced junk i never would advise or recomend them ever again considering i use to use them all the time. I am currently fasing them out 2 down 2 to go gone AMD & havnt looked back support is good & AMD is open with there cards & whats going on Nvidia arnt & never will be as they care about you $ & only your $ not you as a user or client. Big business screw the competition yet ther products are no better & more cheaply made yet sold for twice the price with junky driver support & need of OC tool go open the card. No thanks no intrest in that thanks AMD ticks all the boxes decent drivers, Good built in tools monitoring software & no need for nasty 3rd party parasitic crapware which in the end will kill you build which always do. Been there done it. AMD has stepped up over the years i am impressed happy & will support there products & i know many join the Red team to try something diffrent had had good results. Obvioiusly you like your green crap every1 to there own tho i be the last 1 laughing when all the hidden issues are made public which is due soon. I got a few in the crapvidia driver team about to tell them to stick it as they had enough of the bs & from what i have been told AMD is going to gain & gain from it all i am saying as i dont wana get these people into any trouble till they get there things sorted but going to be a fun year in the PC community & AMD are going to gain a lot this year from unhappy clients from Intel & crapvidia. Enjoy your green junk just happy i made my change now & wont ever go back i am recommending AMD to sceptics & unbiased open minded clients as a option now as they are a viable & great option for price preformance & technology improvements over the competition & 7nm wont be far in the next half year to year or so so technically AMD will be ahead of the competition why been so much AMD bashing buy the high priced competiton. Be nice to see them scalp the big boys cant wait to see got the popcorn ready to watch this show playout.

                      • Re: Goodbye, Radeon, and your false promises.
                        brucer

                        You cant even write a functional paragraph, so I'm sure people will listen to you..

                         

                        Amd software has been awful for years, their driver support has been crap since AMD bought ATI. Wattman (Bloatman) is bloatware.  The entire Polaris/Vega architecture is meh.. I hope Navi is much better, if we even see Navi, hope its released in a competitive time frame and not a year late like previous architectures..

                         

                        You speak of locked forum threads, deleted threads and deleted posts?  I get the same from amd right here in this forum..

                         

                         

                        I'll put my rig up against anything you own.. period

                          • Re: Goodbye, Radeon, and your false promises.
                            pokester

                            I'm sure you are reacting emotionally to the emotional response that was given to you.

                             

                            Just a few key comments on what's been said.

                             

                            You said "I switched to green in my gaming rigs a couple years ago and never looked back." for you to have a valid opinion on the current state of things, how can that be true? Plus you are here replying to a thread started just days ago. I absolutely respect you opinion and never blame anyone for voting with their dollars and finding a better solution for them. Hey that's really the only avenue that makes sense the rest is borderline insanity.

                             

                            Now, my own take, on Wattman is, that it is actually not bloatware, as bloatware implies things being their that aren't relevant to over clocking. Now I will absolutely concede that Wattman works so different to other utilities I've used in the past and as such had a steep learning curve. Once I figured it out, I think it is amazing as you don't ever have to switch profiles for performance anymore. It is all dynamic and is revolutionary IMHO.

                             

                            The big mistake AMD made and seem to keep making since about this time last year is the new tech wasn't and to a point still isn't ready for prime time. We have all been compensating our configurations, to make beta level software work. I absolutely can't defend AMD on this and think it has only given them a black eye.

                             

                            I do respect where they are going with the new tech and look very much forward to a stable release. The minimum and absolute truth in all of this is both companies and all of us, as customers, benefit from the rivalry. Competition stimulates innovation and (until recently with miners) keeps prices as low as possible.

                             

                            You are correct that some threads and some peoples posts have been locked and deleted here as well. I know that to be a fact. In fact I believe a previous post is missing from this thread as I type.

                             

                            Again thanks for your opinion, I hope that maybe Navi is the answer and gives you a reason to give AMD another try. I ended up with Nvidia back when, I felt they constantly broke old games and only concentrated on new AAA titles. In those days I felt they were just keeping their download size small and eliminating old code. Me as a user I still wanted to play old games, and still do. AMD has always done a fantastic job in my experience support very old titles, even very recently there was an DX9 issue that was resolved in about a week.

                             

                            Good Luck & Happy Gaming!

                              • Re: Goodbye, Radeon, and your false promises.
                                brucer

                                I owned a Fury, Fury-x and an rx480.. the rx480 being the latest amd gpu I owned and it was bought for a backup rig..  When gpu prices skyrocketed the first time I sold off, turned that into cash and bought a 1070, then a 1080, then I sold the 1070 for good profit, then I bought an msi 1080ti trio like three months ago before the prices went completely through the roof.. I sold my 1080 a couple weeks ago for $100 more than I paid for it and I sold it too cheap at $700.. I'm glad I got my 1080ti for $799, heck I thought that was entirely too much, not so right now..

                                 

                                Maybe prices will come back down so I can play with some of the new amd stuff thats coming.. But AMD needs to work on their software/drivers so much I'll have to wait for the platform to mature more..  I'm not going to be a beta tester for AMD again..

                                  • Re: Goodbye, Radeon, and your false promises.
                                    pokester

                                    Couldn't agree more. I was really happy that I bought my RX 580 when I did in November. There was literally a 2 week period prices came back to reality and I got mine for $301 and Best Buy, the week later they had it on sale 40 buck off and I got it price adjusted. Then next week they were $700.

                                     

                                    Regardless what you pay though, when you spend even $100, you aren't buying beta hardware and the expectation is it meets industry standards and it's own marketing claims.

                                     

                                    Sounds like made out well enough for your inconvenience out of all of this, hope the trend continues.

                                     

                                    Best Wishes!

                            • Re: Goodbye, Radeon, and your false promises.
                              playsbothsides

                              I use the Green team on my main rig (gaming) and AMD on my wife's pc and work pc. For gaming I use the GTX 1080ti.

                              I doubt we would ever see a driver that worked for all. I'm happy with the card I have now.

                              • Re: Goodbye, Radeon, and your false promises.
                                m3tho5

                                Fully agree. Gaming applications are fine. Been long supporter for Radeons even before the merger.  But, none of the major data science libraries work on AMD Radeons.  You have re-write everything.  You can't even run OpenCL 1.2 on Ubuntu 18.04 to get at least 1 major library to work on it.  Google tensorflow works on GPU on CUDA.  I think AMD is much more innovative on the hardware, but it's all useless in GPUs.  "I have thousands of cores, but I'm using like 1 to paint the screen but it doesn't install on anything."  All they had to do was just use CUDA syntax rather than invent a completely different eco system.  It's like the equivalent to CPUs where you ask everyone to program in AMD's version of C++ and if you can get it to install only 10% of the functions work. 

                                 

                                Anyone at AMD listening?  CEO?  Spend money on this.

                                  • Re: Goodbye, Radeon, and your false promises.
                                    pokester

                                    I absolutely get where you are coming from and I too believe the drivers should be rock solid. Now on to the next, the big issue isn't that cuda works better (although I get that in reality and currently it is) but that Nvidia is the one that chose the proprietary path. The industry then chose to support and build to proprietary specifications. AMD chose the path of using open source OpenCL. Applications, os's and drivers have a long way to go to making that a reliable reality. I doubt AMD is listening as it is only your peers in this forum and a couple of AMD mods that answer probably less than 10% of the time. I have opened support tickets and get a response about 20% of the time. I have written the past and current CEO many times and never got a response, even to a recent hand penned letter I really hoped would. My guess is that AMD just flat out does not have enough software engineers to tackle all the issues at hand. Things are being fixed every driver release, but with the abundance of issues it seams to most that nothing is getting taken care of. Then you tack on the constant fixing of the driver because Microsoft keeps breaking things from their end and you have an untenable situation. I wish anything I said was a fix or helped, unfortunately it is just the best logical excuse for the situation I can come up with. This is ally my opinion as a user just like you, I don't represent AMD.