61 Replies Latest reply on Jul 19, 2017 3:40 PM by red5

    AMD Opinion on Mining

    zealotki11er

      As many of you know AMD GPUs are very good for mining. The problem is that games get effect by this. I was just looking at some prices for RX 580 and RX 570 at NCIX.ca to find out there is 0 stock. Most games which are the true enthusiast are now forced to buy Nvidia GPUs leaving the miners which are there for profit only to buy AMD GPUs. The negative side effect is that only current AMD GPU I could buy is RX 480 for $480 CAD ~ $360 USD. A lot of places have already started price gouging. Does AMD intend to be is same situation when Hawaii launch making one the the greatest GPUs pushed to the side because of miners. Is there a way to stop miners?

        • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
          whiskey-foxtrot

          I'm not sure if AMD can or needs to control any segment of their product end-use as it would be the same way in reverse. I can see an issue with possible production shortages with HBM2 for Vega if that somehow gets adopted by other market segments (miners etc). Heck, you can't blame AMD for having a superior product that's hot in demand by many.

           

          I personally use a lot (40+) of AMD GPUs for modelling and rendering data in my companies lab - should AMD block me from doing that?

           

          Now, I may get some flack for saying this: recent AMD cards haven't been on equal playing grounds as far as out of the box performance is concerned compared to the green machine and it seems a lot of the big box gaming companies (Ubisoft for instance) primarily focus on NVidia optimized games. Before I get shot down - I have systems with both cards, and I am able to run the same games at close to similar performance. For instance one of my favorites is Ubisoft's Ghost Recon Wildlands - with my RX-480's tuned on my Ryzen system (Oscar Mike ) I maintain a smooth 62FPS avg, with my main display @4k, high settings, while streaming to multiple sources! Yes I had to do some major tweaking to those cards, but I did it and I loved every minute of it. With the NVidia cards I get about the same performance without much of a hassle and this is what some folks prefer.

           

          Now back to your question: should AMD stop miners? Even if they could, I don't think they should. You can impose a limit on resellers to allow only 2 max per household (Like NewEgg does on low stock/hot selling items) but that's about it. Miners or any other segment that find a good use for these products are going to find a way around that.

          2 of 2 people found this helpful
            • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
              zealotki11er

              The problem is the after effect if mining stop being profitable like in 2014. The market will be dumped with used Polaris GPUs. The only solution is AMD to have a new GPU by then. It is a good thing miners use AMD GPUs but they are taking GPUs from gamers. Gamers are more brand loyal. If I want to build a system right now I am forced to get Nvidia.

              • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                kxuping

                Can you share the tweaks to your 480?

                  • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                    whiskey-foxtrot

                    One of the highest settings without much tweaking: https://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/details/f4ybh The problem with sharing as you know is that my settings may not work for your system and one of the reasons I'm able to keep the temps down and push the limits is via watercooling. Also posting some of the things I did would not be the most responsible thing to do on a public forum. But in short one of the biggest things I did was meddle with the GPU BIOS settings and also memory timings (no, I did not flash my 480's to 580's as I've seen some people do). The next thing I did was to try gradual OC settings while documenting every step and setting to see the breaking point or to where it became unstable and for this I used only WattMan. This is probably the best thing anyone can do to squeeze the most out of their Rx'.

                     

                    I started to document OC changes  to Oscar-Mike on my website and will keep updating over the next few weeks; I'm not going to post it publicly as I don't want to advertise my site - if you would still like to see it, send me a message.

                  • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                    ajlueke

                    Seeking to control the product end use is exactly what NVidia did.  In the Fermi/Kepler days NVidia had pretty strong native FP64 rates of 1/2, 1/3 respectively.  In the original launch of the Maxwell Titan X, the FP64 native rate was slashed to 1/32.  They did this in large part because the Titan Black had actually been purchased for scientific workstations normally reserved for part higher margin Tesla and Quattro cards.  Effectively, NVidia was cannibalizing a much higher margin sector of it's business with a high end gaming card. 

                    Gaming software however, doesn't use a high extent of F64 math unlike scientific software.  So cutting them out preserves the Quattro market, while simultaneously freeing up die space for smaller and more efficient FP32 ALUs. that can be utilized by games to run even faster.  That was big part of the gains in speed and efficiency seen in the GTX 980 era. 

                    The "graphics core next" spec by AMD requires a minimum 1/16 FP64 rate.  Meaning that AMD cards will always have an advantage in that area.  With 1/16 vs 1/32 a RX 480 will have better FP64 throughput than a GTX 1080, and is priced much lower.  That makes these cards the "card to get" for currency miners, folding@home applications etc.

                     

                    AMD could also slash their rate to 1/32 essentially putting them on parity with NVidia, but that seems unlikely.  If AMD card aren't quite on parity with Nvidia counter parts as far as gaming goes, and the FP64 rates are the same.  That could leave AMD with a lot of cards that they can't sell.  This way at least the cards are going out the door.

                    1 of 1 people found this helpful
                      • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                        nwerneck

                        It's very interesting to bring the other "alternative" users into the scene, since we started talking just about miners... But now we must notice there are gamers (which are also fragmented in applications like high-frames-per-second first-person-shooters (hi-FPSFPS) and then others like e-sports etc), and then we have the evil miners, and then we also have machine learning people, and even researchers who are into other things like physical simulation. It's actually a huge variety of markets. And notice that mining has nothing to do with floating-point processing AFAIK, so I don't know why you guys are talking about it.

                          • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                            ajlueke

                            There are applications that benefit greatly from double point precision in floating point operations that also pay out cryptocurrency like Gridcoin for BOINC work.  There are a lot more ways to mine than just integer calculations for bitcoin.

                             

                            But ties into your point, which is well made.  Saying all the cards are being bought up by miners that don't go to gamers is an over simplification.  There is a lot of computation science work out there that also benefit more from AMD cards than NVidia.  Especially for people who don't want to shell out extra dough for full blown "Pro" cards.

                      • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                        kxuping

                        That is the beauty of open standards and non crippled products. You can do a lot of things with your GPU and not only game. Other companies cripple their products.

                        1 of 1 people found this helpful
                        • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                          zealotki11er

                          Look at Newegg Stock. If you guys think gamers are going out and buying RX 570s and 580 you are all wrong.

                           

                          RX 580 - Newegg.com

                          RX 570 - Newegg.com

                           

                          This is terrible for AMD. Like I said before Miners do it only for profit. There is 0 attachment to the brand. Everything else has some degree of brand attachment even if its not for gaming.

                          • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                            benman2785

                            in all years of mining i NEVER EVER heard of a single "GreenTeam" Farm

                             

                            all that matters is TFLOPS -> and here rules AMD/ATI since ages...

                            • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                              red5

                              I'm sure AMD is happy to sell as many RX5** cards as possible. I was looking for a 570 myself. Newegg had none in stock. However, my local Best Buy has an XFX 570 in stock so I may run over and get it for my new build.

                              We've been down this road before. I bought an R9 290 at release for $420. just a few weeks later Newegg was selling them or about $600. I sold mine 'used' on Ebay for $515... it was all due to the mining effect.

                                • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                  zealotki11er

                                  This does not help AMD. That the problem here. If a gamer build a PC using newegg they will get GTX1060. Gamers are more loyal than miners which are there only for the money. Also everyone know the effect the market will have when mining crashes and everyone dumps all those used RX GPUs.

                                    • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                      red5

                                      sorry, but as a business, cash is king and you don't care who is buying your product as long as it is selling. If they can sell cards as fast as they can make them, even to cryptocurrency miners, that's good business.  There are cards still out there like in Best Buy stores, but they're hard to find online sometimes.

                                      Think about it, AMD and Lisa Su is concerned about their stock price, and telling investors how well their cards are selling is a good thing. The investors aren't looking at who is buying them, they just know somebody is.  This keeps the wheels turning for AMD and allows them to develop better products for us. Eventually the GPUs won't mine as well as new ASICS when someone builds them.

                                      So the bottom line is, and this is a business basics. You sell as much as you possibly can. End of story. Fanboys

                                      2 of 2 people found this helpful
                                        • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                          zealotki11er

                                          I am sorry but you do not seem the understand the problem here. This is not the first time that this has happened. After the mining crashed nobody bough AMD GPUs. Why didn't AMD have money after selling cards to miners for 1 year? Why right now there are no cards for sale? They did not plan for miner. All the cards that wanted to sell to gamers are sold to miners. There is no difference. The problem is after the mining craze goes down you have a bunch of miners with 100s of RX cards and a lot of gamers with Geforce cards. What would I tell someone that wants to build a PC right now? Get a Geforce? This is all around the world problem. Is not like AMD can ram up production just for miners because that market is too unstable. Would be great if AMD can cash on miners but they never did on 290X days (people and retailers did). Now they just do not have any extra cards to sell. It is great that all their stock sold but it was probably 2-3 months worth of stock planed which sold in less than 1 month.

                                            • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                              whiskey-foxtrot

                                              This is probably the last time I'm going to respond to this as it's not getting anywhere or anything accomplished. I fail to see it 100% from your perspective - $1 = $1 = $1, no matter where it's from. The card is sold end of story - If someone buys it to take it apart and place it on a shelf for decoration, or he uses it as Christmas tree decoration - it doesn't matter in the end because it was sold - the manufacturer (Asus, Gigabyte, MSI, Visiontek etc etc) gets paid by the vendor who sold it depending on their terms and everybody gets their share. I can't speak about AMD finances (and I don't think you should either unless you know something we don't) - it's not relevant who buys it as long as someone buys it. I'm also not going to speculate on behalf of AMD. If I had a company like AMD, I probably would temporarily limit production on a recently released line (like the Rx 5xx series) to either focus on/ramp up production for the next one (Rx/Vega for instance). Again, not saying that AMD is doing this, it's what I would do. Once the new product is released and sales temper down a bit, release more stock for the previous line and so on.

                                               

                                              To answer your question: "Is there a way to stop miners?" - No. Just like you can't stop people from using products like ornaments.

                                               

                                              In the end, as a vendor, distributor, or manufacturer - a product sold at a decent margin is a win.  And that, is the end of the story.

                                                • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                  zealotki11er

                                                  You need to have enough cards to feed gamers and miners. If you just feed miner which eat real fast gamers will have to eat green. The side effect is that get hooked on the green stuff. Sure this would not be a problem if miners continue to buy cards but it is not a stable market.

                                                    • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                      ajlueke

                                                      I also understand the point zealotki11er is trying to make.  If all the cards are sold to miners, game developers will continue to port games to run best on Nvidia as that is what most gamers are (and will be using).  At least PC gamers. 

                                                      AMD has combated that problem partially by tapping the console market.  Most developers still develop games on console first and then do sometimes horrendous PC ports, often farmed out to a different company on a limited time schedule (Mortal Kombat X, Arkham Origins anyone?)

                                                       

                                                      AMD could combat miners by slashing their double precision rates down to 1/32 like NVidia did in the first Maxwell.  But as others have been saying, AMD then would lose that business.  Sure, there will be more PCs with NVidia inside, but developers will still make games optimized for AMD hardware because it is at the heart of the major consoles and their refreshes this winter.

                                                       

                                                      But perhaps all that is about to change?  I haven't seen anything on the compute ALUs for the different versions of Vega.  I know it has a 1:2 FP16:FP32 rate, but I haven't seen anything about the FP64 rate.  Perhaps the Frontier Edition will have a higher FP64 rate than the RX version, making it worse for gaming but better for mining/physics?

                                          • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                            nwerneck

                                            As many of you know, AMD GPUs are great for gaming, what creates a big problem for us miners. Is there any way we can stop gamers?

                                              • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                red5

                                                LOLOL.. I see what Zealotki11er is saying, but AMD has better things to do than police who is buying their cards. If they can sell 100 out of every 100 GPUs produced, that is a very good thing. You're basically asking them to somehow set aside X number of those 100 cards and wait for gamers to buy them. Well how many cards do they set back? How do they figure that out? They are operating on a shoestring budget. They don't have time to mess with something like this.  It's just an interesting phenomena that we have to deal with. Vega will be out soon, and it is very possible that miners will switch to buying those and leave the RX 570s and 580s alone for the most part.

                                                  • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                    zealotki11er

                                                    Set a limit for 1 GPU per user and also release more card. Have a RX580 replacement in time. Last time around even though 290/290X where fantastic card after the mining craze people bought the new shinny GTX970/980. AMD had no follow up.

                                                • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                  feverstriker

                                                  I'm sorry but wouldn't using one of those dedicate miners, like the Antminer s9, s7 or s5 be a lot more profitable then using any combination of GPUs by either of the companies? Last time I checked they produce a ridiculous amount of hash solving power and are way more efficient then running GPUs.

                                                  I might be wrong and if that's the case then I see how miners could be effecting the GPU market. However, if the dedicated mining hardware is indeed that much better and efficient then GPU ones then the prices shouldn't be effected that much at all. Right?

                                                    • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                      nwerneck

                                                      This is only true for Bitcoin and some other very similar cryptocurrencies. For others you can get a pretty decent hashrate, e.g. Ethereum or Monero. They use different algorithms that are more CPU/GPU friendly, making it hard for ASIC miners to obtain a huge advantage like with Bitcoin. Something about the algorithm depending more on memory also. Anyway, it's also not just about that, these coins may have fewer people mining, making it easier for you to win something with accessible hardware. But the Ethereum network is getting quite big, for instance, making it less attractive for someone who can only put a couple of GPUs to work on it. The fact the big miners might use very specialized and energy-efficient hardware does not tell the full story for any other coin apart from the Bitcoin family. GPU mining of alt-coins is here to stay!

                                                        • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                          feverstriker

                                                          AH!!! Totally forgot that some of them use scrypt and other hash. Good call!!!

                                                           

                                                          On another note, I just looked at the prices for RX 480 and 580 and it seems like you can't find a single card under $400, *** is up with that? Werent they supposed to be like $250 msrp?

                                                          Seems like you guys are right, miners are buying out our cards!!!

                                                          A quote comes to mind "They took der jerbs!!"

                                                      • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                        rulikas4

                                                        Thanks to mining the only new gpus you can buy now are RX 460 or GTX 1050/1050ti , anything above that are either sold out or requires a huge premium (only available 1070 costs as much as cheapest 1080).

                                                        • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                          doomcreeper

                                                          From the stores around the world, video cards are missing! In Russia, they can not buy. You do not think that mining is destroying PC gaming. People are beginning to refuse to build a PC because of the lack of video cards in stores and buy consoles. When will miners stop buying graphics cards? There are also devices for mining, why miners do not purchase these devices?

                                                          • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                            red5

                                                            I gotta say, it would be a great thing for AMD to do if they worked with a vendor like Sapphire to offer up a certain number of RX 570s and 580s to the community in here. Don't just allow people to create profiles and grab cards the same day, but make it so you have to have been here for 30 days. It's definitely doable and would not take a tremendous amount of work. 

                                                            1 of 1 people found this helpful
                                                            • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                              red5

                                                              Just noticed a post about Ethereum prices falling, so I looked into it.  Seems legit. The prices have dropped quite a bit and I've seen where people say they are liquidating their GPUs because of that. However, Ebay prices for RX cards are still very high on the sold listings, and Newegg has no 470/570 and 480/580 in stock.

                                                              With that being said, it is very likely if prices stay low it will no longer be feasible for people to purchase new cards to mine, and they will use what they have and possibly start to sell before the prices of the used cards plummets.

                                                              The following quote is from CNBC earlier today "The cryptocurrency has now fallen more than 50 percent since registering all-time highs of over $400 in early June."

                                                                • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                  whiskey-foxtrot

                                                                  You are correct - the timing I indicated in the general forum about this is spot on . I made that prediction simply because the majority of folks who slurped up GPUs are small "miners" trying to jump on the bandwagon and with the network difficulty increasing it's no longer viable to mine with the same amount of hardware. I did a study/data-mining project on this; the outcome was that larger miners (20+ multi-gpu rigs per installation) account for less than 15% of purchases; the small miners (anything less than 20+ rigs, either have to double their hardware count etc to remain profitable, or sell out - which is happening now. Of course, they'll still ask sky high prices trying to recoup potential losses because there will be buyers unaware of the mining principles still trying to jump on the bandwagon.

                                                                    • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                      red5

                                                                      I made sure to look at "SOLD" listings on Ebay, and as of yesterday they were still going for a premium.  When these cards hit the market used I wish there was an easy way to tell how long they may have been used. Just like a cpu has a date code on the lid, it would be nice if next to the serial number on the board it had a date of manufacture. It would then give you at least a bit of an idea how long the card had been getting abused LOL. I'd much rather buy a used card made in April of 2017 than a card made in October of 2016

                                                                  • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                    kxuping

                                                                    Nelly Frias (@NellyFRyz) | Twitter

                                                                    Posted a lot of combo offers of Ryzen CPU + RX 580 GPU. So if you are building a new PC you can get the CPU and GPU.

                                                                    • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                      xobeloot

                                                                      I am building a payitforward rig within the next week.  I had planned on going RX *70/*80,  ut as was mentioned, i did wind up buying from the green team.  Am I bummed that I had to fo this? Absolutely! Am I bummed that AMD is kickin'... And chewin' bubblegum in the market right now (even if it is all miners)? Not at all.

                                                                       

                                                                      Time restraints (and price gouging)  made me buy what I could get.

                                                                       

                                                                      That's ok.  RX Vega is just around the corner and i'm hoping it comes at a fair price point to gamers but also a high enough price to keep the miners away.

                                                                        • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                          red5

                                                                          I'm hoping prices may also start to decline on the 560s. I have a bunch of upgrades and saving $20 per card would be great.  Maybe 570s will be getting dumped on Ebay for like $100?  wishful thinking.  I could use about 8 of them

                                                                        • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                          red5

                                                                          I was notified by Newegg last night that a 570 was in stock and I acted right away and was able to snag it. Sapphire Pulse model. $259 though, I'd say that is a bit steep for a 570 card

                                                                            • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                              xobeloot

                                                                              That is actually great for right now.  I went to Best Buy a few days ago to get a 570 b/c they had them in stock and even they were charging over $300 in the store.  Congrats on your new card.

                                                                                • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                                  red5

                                                                                  For anyone wanting a card I would go to Newegg and click 'auto-notify' on every RX 570 and RX 580 and maybe you'll get lucky too. I responded within several minutes, and after completing my transaction they were gone again.

                                                                                    • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                                      zealotki11er

                                                                                      Now its a good time to wait. RX card will be dirt cheap in 2-3 weeks.

                                                                                        • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                                          whiskey-foxtrot

                                                                                          Yes - but stay away from "lightly used" versions though unless you know the seller. Buy new if possible!

                                                                                          • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                                            juggernautxtr

                                                                                            yeah they will be dirt cheap and the boards will be burnt to hell and only last a couple months, I have bought and used "miners" cards, take the back plate off some of these and you will see why they fail. a green board will be brown from being 24/7 hot.

                                                                                            buying mining cards is a bad deal all the way around. and the manufactures of those cards lose their tail end on warrnty claims as the miners return them for claims which keeps the price high even after mining has collapsed.

                                                                                              • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                                                red5

                                                                                                I don't know what you're talking about. I literally bought an entire mining farm once from a company where their IT guy was using company money for it. 28 total graphics cards and nothing as you described.

                                                                                                  • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                                                    red5

                                                                                                    I also have run folding@home for YEARS on various graphics cards and never burned one up. There was never any indication of abuse and the cards run at 100% 24/7. I did however kill motherboards running Folding@Home

                                                                                                    • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                                                      juggernautxtr

                                                                                                      you obviously didn't read the whole thing, some of these people throw them out on a porch where it is 80 degrees if you honestly think thats a good enviroment for these cards running at 100% load.

                                                                                                      I build systems at home, i have had people come to me to fix their mining rig.......I have seen entire mother boards burnt, on top of the graphics cards.

                                                                                                      If your lucky the card your buying was warranted and replaced with a new or like new one.

                                                                                                      go ask saphire what they spent on the last mining craze..........lost their tales 2 million in warranty claims.

                                                                                          • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                                            ajlueke

                                                                                            Cards have become available again at my local shop.  Saw a RX 570, as well as GTX 1070s and 1080 on the shelf at MSRP.

                                                                                            • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                                              juggernautxtr

                                                                                              To be quite frank AMD loses their tail on mining, they don't get any market share value on these cards which in turn says their cards aren't selling, so anyone saying it's selling yes it is but AMD is getting the short end of the stick.

                                                                                              they make a GPU which is sold to a AIB which then has a card designed to use that GPU. they make some profit, and the retailers make a profit. AMD doesn't get paid more cause they are selling out.

                                                                                              after market wise these cards are completely fried and almost useless, they need to be completely tore apart and inspected,new TIM added, inspected for card tracing being burnt.

                                                                                              hey i got 10 580's running on my porch where it is 80 degrees and these cards running at 100% 24/7, i sent 5 in to replace the burnt out fan, but got sent a new one back because the traces on the board were fried. but i am making$900 a month but i am not going to spend the money to help keep these cards cool with some A/C.

                                                                                              i wouldn't give a card that was used for mining $50 they have been severely abused and over heated to the point that 75-80% of their life expectancy is lost.

                                                                                                • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                                                  zealotki11er

                                                                                                  The making money part is true. AMD does not make any more money from each card sold. As far damaging the card from mining I would say its not a problem. Most of these cards that will come in the market especially RX 5XX have been mining for less than 3 months. I have cards that have mined for years 24/7. Also nobody runs their cards at very high temps because most think its a long term thing and want to keep these cards mining without RMA because downtime is less money made. The only thing mining does is anything is really show which AIB has build cheap cards.

                                                                                                • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                                                  kxuping

                                                                                                  zealotki11er is correct.

                                                                                                  current cards RX4XX and RX5XX (70C) run a lot cooler at full load than the R9 290X (90C) from the previous mining fever, 20C less. I bought WC block immediately for my R9 290X  quadfire. My RX580 crossfire don't need WC and the fans are silent. I think after the mining fever (if it ever ends) the used RX4XX and RX5XX will have less problems than the R9 290X. Buying at ebay with paypal protection gives you a few weeks to thoroughly test the cards and detect any problem. 3 of my R9 290X were used in mining with standard fan blowers before I bought them. Tested them for a week and they are running fine for the last 3+ years.

                                                                                                    • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                                                      whiskey-foxtrot

                                                                                                      Agreed - mined cards don't necessarily translate into bad cards. For my own systems I probably would get it used IF I knew the seller and they offered a decent exchange period. Just like red5 said - I've seen a lot of "mined cards" that were used in a good environment and I never had any issues with them. The main problem I have is when BIOS' are modified, and sometimes wrongly modified which is where problems come into play at some point, if not immediately.

                                                                                                        • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                                                          red5

                                                                                                          Which is why it would be really nice for cards to have a manufacture date stamped on them like a cpu.  I can't remember if the GPU core itself has a date stamped on it, but that would be a bit much to ask someone to remove the heatsink/fan assembly. A date code next to the serial number on the card would be nice. Then at least you'd know how long the card COULD have been mining.

                                                                                                      • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                                                        red5

                                                                                                        It looks like the end is near... More reports on Ethereum dropping even further. Apparently there is a new difficulty level which is making it unprofitable.  Ebay prices are sinking as we speak.

                                                                                                          • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                                                            whiskey-foxtrot

                                                                                                            Every 2 - 3 weeks there's a difficulty increase. I cringe every time I hear folks talk about setting up a mining rig, just now. The only way to have made this profitable is with 2 or 3 rigs with 6 - 8+ GPUs late 2016 and held on to the coins till early June. This would've made them instant millionaires.

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            IF you have 1 or 2 of the rigs I mentioned above AND you know how to margin/trade, you can still make some decent money on a daily basis. All others who just jumped in with 4 or 5 cards when the media started noticing the value may as well sell out to recoup losses. None of the current coins stand the chance of getting picked up by the Winklevoss brothers and the like, so not much of a future for late-comers (at this time).

                                                                                                          • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                                                            blazs120gl

                                                                                                            zealotki11er wrote:

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            ... Is there a way to stop miners?

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            What I'm wondering about is if there could be a technical solution to check the 'mileage' in the cards, like a 'flight recorder'.

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            An OTP-like storage could store it, and since they can't be cleared they are difficult to be tampered with it undetected. It could also store the history of GPU firmware updates. Evidence of former miner BIOS could be detected (warranty void, right?) and with e.g. a public application anyone could just check the cards prior buying second hand and retailers could also check for false RMA claims.

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            Miners prefer the consumer VGA cards because they have more warranty than the worst case 24/7 mode lifespan of a card and because they reserve the option to sell the cards to desktop users. I think mining on a consumer-grade device is an abuse of the warranty system and selling them second-hand a fraudulent practice (esp. when those cards are advertised as like-new condition cards, with a warranty that is most probably no longer valid).

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            If miners can't make profit of buying consumer grade VGA cards and RMA or sell them, they will switch over to the mining cards with 3 months of warranty. Consumer-grade VGA prices would also be normalized as supply/demand would correspond to the ecosystem.

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            An although the mining difficulty is already in the exponential stage, these cards will remain with us for some years. Not mentioning a dozen remaining types of coins to switch to.

                                                                                                              • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                                                                red5

                                                                                                                Good thoughts, but you're adding to the complexity of the cards (cost) and putting the burden back onto the card manufacturers.

                                                                                                                How about an undefeatable BioS feature that severely underclocks the GPU if it spends more than 10 minutes at 100% usage or something like that? Games certainly don't run a card at 100%. Only mining or Folding@Home or something like that would. If you want the unlocked version of the card then you pay a premium for it.

                                                                                                                Seems like an easy feature to implement, and it won't affect gamers at all.

                                                                                                                  • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                                                                    kxuping

                                                                                                                    That would be a green team kind of tactic, limit the GPU and tax every good part of the GPU. AMD/Radeon is the top supporter of open standards and don't limit what you can do with your GPUs. Both are the reasons I buy AMD/Radeon. If they had implemented something like that (limit functionality),  I would have bought a green team 1080ti instead of a crossfire 2x RX580 8GB for the same amount of money to start playing with Big Data and other stuff.

                                                                                                                    I will buy RX Vega the day of launch, because I support Open Standards and dont support artificially limited GPUs. Even if i get less FPS on games.

                                                                                                                      • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                                                                        red5

                                                                                                                        well the discussion was how to make GPUs less attractive to miners. Gaming never really runs a card at 100%. If it is running 100% you need a better card.

                                                                                                                        Event though Ethereum may be declining there will eventually be another new cryptocurrency that causes shortages. Rather than limit core-level features that could truly affect gaming performance I think the GPU throttling makes the most sense.

                                                                                                                        Just thinking of all the gamers out there not able to upgrade because of an artificial shortage created by a niche market.

                                                                                                                        1 of 1 people found this helpful
                                                                                                                          • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                                                                            zealotki11er

                                                                                                                            Just when you think ETH is crashing it goes up today. Also games push card to 100%. Even 1080 Ti. If you are not pushing the card to 100% you either have fps cap or your CPU is holding you back.

                                                                                                                              • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                                                                                blazs120gl

                                                                                                                                Unfortunately, The BIOS is relatively easy to hack/defeat (located most probably in a separate I2C or SPI Flash IC).

                                                                                                                                The solution I suggested in my humble opinion would cost less than a dollar (e.g. an 8-bit MCU hard or softcore and an OTP ROM like IC). Since time and temperature can be measured completely separate from the GPU itself, it can be totally tamper proof (that is, without messing with the hardware but that leaves visible traces as well).

                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                At any day I would pick the card that has such a feature. Board manufacturers would also benefit from it as the fraudulent RMA claims could be identified denied, so each card not exchanged/reimbursed could cover the extra cost of hundreds of cards. There is a huge stock of those cards on miner hands. I think two digits failure rates can be expected in the next two years.

                                                                                                                                Second hand users can also benefit from checking cards before they buy, also a positive brand recognition opportunity.

                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                Miner cards on the other hand, are sometimes underclocked to let fans run slower (lower noise and power). This still puts a huge mileage into them (e.g. lifetime of the capacitors and VRMs, fans are still ticking hard).  So they are not affected by any artificial limits. I'm not against pushing the cards to the limit, that's the reason they exist.

                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                IMHO everyone has the right to buy a card and beat the living hell out of it. But this must come at a cost, reduced second-hand value that any buyer can check, or certain warranty loss when used outside of consumer-grade spec. Miners are attracted by the unsanctioned opportunity to make free RMAs and sell worn cards with apparently low mileage, should they not fulfill their financial expectations.

                                                                                                                                • Re: AMD Opinion on Mining
                                                                                                                                  red5

                                                                                                                                  Games tend not to be a linear load, if you're gaming and the gpu is running at 100% for 10 minutes straight then something is wrong or you need to adjust your settings. Same with cpu. If anything is running at 100% then there are no resources to serve other Windows processes and services.