25 Replies Latest reply on Jun 2, 2017 7:15 PM by ajlueke

    VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!

    abheekg

      Hello all,

       

      Firstly, thank you to anyone reading this with a helpful intent, I’m very grateful to have a good online community to turn to in such times.

       

      My system specifications are as follows:

      AMD Ryzen 7 1700 @ stock

      GIGABYTE AB350-Gaming 3 with latest F5 BIOS

      Corsair LPX3000 8GBx2 DDR4 memory (does not run above 2166 L)

      MSI RX480 4GB

      Corsair RM750x Power Supply

      Samsung 850 EVO 250GB SSD as OS/Applns drive

      Western Digital 1TB 7200RPM Blue Hard Drive

      Windows 10 Home x64 Operating System

       

      My problem is as follows:

       

      On installing windows, everything worked great. I installed Far Cry 4, Fallout 4 and Wildlands, all worked very well: Far Cry 4 @ 50-70FPS Very high settings, Fallout4 @ 45-60FPS Ultra and Wildlands @ 45-55FPS Very High settings, all on 1080p. I shut down the machine, and on restart all games had degraded, FC4 gives nothing above 20 FPS, Fallout4 stutters wildly, and Wildlands just crashes. I run a basic CPU-Z benchmark, single core scores ~2000, as expected, and multicore gives barely 5000. I check that R7 1700 generally gives 16000 on this. Checking in the task manager, CPU-Z also peeks processor usage at 45%. I enable the High-Performance power plan, reinstall display drivers, and even uninstall the processor from Dev Manager and restart: no luck. Desperate, I reinstall windows: all back to normal. CPU-Z @ 16000 and FPS back to old levels. I shut down and restart the machine, still all good. But then after gaming, CPU-Z drops back to 5000 score, CPU usage to 45%, but I recheck FC4 and it’s still solid.  So CPU-Z and FC4 are not related, hmm. Relieved, I call it a day.

       

      Next morning the computer boots, Windows informs me it’s corrupt, and a GIGABYTE splash screen stating, “ATTEMPTING REPAIRS” sticks around for a bit. Restarts then, performance degraded as before. Exasperated and in no mood for this, I reinstall windows, all back to normal once again. I spend the day shutting down the rig, switching off the mains and restarting. All stays solid. I get SiSoft Sandra and Cinebench R15. Benchmark over 10 times throughout the day. Cinebench consistently gives chart topping performance, a CPU score of 1350+ every time. The Cinebench OpenGL test does the same, top performance on the small list they display to the left with a score of 80+ FPS each and every time. FC4 stays above 70 FPS. All good. The system has been cold booted several times, benchmarked several times, all seems solid. I start the computer at night: performance degraded, Far Cry 4 back at 20FPS, CPU-Z at 5000 multicore. But here’s the funny thing: Cinebench sticks to its old scores of 1350+ CPU and 80FPS+ GPU. Once the GPU score dips to 76, but then stays above 80 consistently after that. I use DDU to remove the display drivers using Windows Safe Mode and re-download and install them: no luck. High Cinebench score, ultra-fast bootup and systems response. Far Cry 4 degraded heavily. 

       

        It’s late and night and I need to work the next day, so I give up for the day. I come back today evening, and check what’s up, Cinebench R15 CPU test gives 1367 (perfect), the OpenGL test gives an all-time high of 93FPS. Curious, I try Far Cry 4, it’s back to 55-70 FPS. CPU-Z? Single core: 2000, multicore: 1800!

       

      Really, what is going on here guys? I’d be so grateful to anyone shedding some light on what this could be. I also changed the PSU cable and plugged it the GPU into a different power slot: nothing had changed last night. I don’t understand what’s wrong because if there were a hardware problem, how would it do so well with CPU & GPU @ 100% use on Cinebench, but suck everywhere else? 

      While it’s working well now, I don’t want to wait to be bewildered by another random screw up…insights and help please!!

        • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
          ajlueke

          Hello!

          It seems to me that your issue could be related to the UEFI.  Somehow the OS isn't communicating reliably with the hardware.  Was UEFI revision are you on?  Check and see if Gigabyte has updated revisions available and flash to the most recent release.  Does the problem persist?  Let us know how it goes.

          • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
            jocpro

            I have a very similar problem with my month old Ryzen system: whenever I turn on my system, I get degraded performance until I reboot it. I did some benchmarks and logged the system with HWInfo64, and was in contact with the MSI people and the only answer that I got was that it should be processor related...


            My system specs are the following:

            CPU: Ryzen R7 1700@stock clocks.
            Cooler: Thermaltake NiC L32, handmodded for AM4 support.
            Motherboard: MSI B350 TOMAHAWK, BIOS version 1.50.
            RAM: G.Skill Trident Z 3200@CL14, 2x16GB Dual Rank, 2667 MT/s
            SSD: Samsung 960 EVO 250 GB NVMe.
            HDD: WD Green 1TB, Seagate Barracuda 500 GB
            GPU: XFX Radeon RX480 GTR Black Edition, stock clocks.
            PSU: Seasonic S12 II Evo 750W 80 plus Bronze Full Modular.
            Sound Card: Creative Labs Sound Blaster Audigy Platinum eX with modded Creative Labs Inspire 5200 speakers.
            Case: Cougar Archon with 4 x CoolerMaster Silencio PWM 120mm fans.

              • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
                ajlueke

                Hello!

                The fact that thermal the issue resolves temporarily with a restart is indicative of some type of thermal throttling.  Typically top down coolers are recommended to also cool the motherboard VRM.  Could you run the system with the side panel removed and a small fan pointed directly at the motherboard VRM?  Does the performance still degrade?  How hot do the GPU core and VRM get according to HWInfo64?

                  • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
                    jocpro

                    Hello there, thanks for answering.

                     

                    Temps are fine, I think. Temp ranges are  26-30°C for the motherboard, 30-45°C for the CPU (that Thermaltake cooler is rated for 180W) and 38-42°C for the VRMs. The GPU goes from 45-50°C to 68°C due to its 0 dB fan configuration. My case is well ventilated, with a bit of positive pressure. Normal fan speeds for this setup is about 500 RPM for the CPU fan and 800 RPM for the four Case fans. Under heavy load they don't get over 700 RPM and 900 RPM respectively.

                     

                    That M.2 SSD is reporting temps of about 30°C with peaks to 45°C during heavy data transfers, even if it's sitting under the Video Card, but they have one intake side panel fan blowing fresh air to both of them.


                    It's Autumn here so the ambient temps are about 17-18°C outside.


                    I doubt is thermal throttling, as the issue is only apparent in Cold Boots, not even during stress tests.

                      • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
                        ajlueke

                        Hello!

                         

                        Sorry, I misunderstood the original issue.  So the system only has the performance degradation on a cold boot, and is resolved upon a reboot?  That is quite interesting, even more so since you don't have any overclocks to speak of other than the RAM at 2667.

                         

                        Did the issue also exist with pervious versions of your UEFI?

                          • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
                            jocpro

                            Yes. My motherboard came with 1.0 BIOS, but I upgraded it before anything else to 1.2 version. At first I thought the problem was random in nature, as sometimes I was turning on the system and tweaking some settings in BIOS before booting to Windows, and sometimes went straight to Windows, but after a while I found out that the degradation was ONLY occurring after a cold boot. I've tried all the BIOS versions, even BETA versions, from 1.2 to 1.5 in hope of seeing this annoyance gone, but to no avail.
                            The system has been running rock solid, sometimes for a couple of days of nonstop usage. The only crashes I've seen were from running Doom with Vulkan with no v-sync.

                            I've been thinking of asking for a RMA, but I wouldn't know if RMAing my CPU or Motherboard... as the MSI guys told me it was most likely a CPU issue, but I think it maybe related to motherboard inicialization...

                              • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
                                ajlueke

                                Seems equally likely that it could motherboard or CPU related.  Incidentally, what network adapter are you using? 

                                  • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
                                    ajlueke

                                    The reason I ask, is due to PCIe lane allocation issues that have been observed more frequently on cold boot, especially with processor's now internalizing many of the old northbridge functions.

                                     

                                    Do you have any other PCIe addin cards beyond the Samsung EVO and the RX480?

                                    1 of 1 people found this helpful
                                      • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
                                        jocpro

                                        I've no other PCIe card installed, just a PCI sound card.

                                         

                                        BTW yesterday I did a little test. Cold booted into Windows and ran CPU-Z Benchmark. Single core score was abysmally low, ~20 points. Multi thread was better, but after reboot Single core  was about 360!! I'll post captures later when I got home.

                                         

                                        ---

                                        And here they are:

                                         

                                        CPU-Z1.pngCPU-Z2.png

                                          • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
                                            ajlueke

                                            Try removing the sound card and repeating the test.  Does the issue still occur?

                                            1 of 1 people found this helpful
                                              • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
                                                jocpro

                                                I think that's the one and only test left for me to do. I'll try that when I get home from work.

                                                • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
                                                  jocpro

                                                  CPU-Z3.png

                                                  I think this is it. Cold boot. Even faster performance. No sound card. I'll miss my sweet Audigy.

                                                    • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
                                                      ajlueke

                                                      Well, that's sort of good news.  Was the sound card in a bracket immediately adjacent to the video card?  Sometimes these issues can occur if there is any contact between the add in cards.  If you can, move the sound card to a PCI slot further from the video card (if your board has more than one) and retest. 

                                                        • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
                                                          jocpro

                                                          msi-b350_tomahawk-tuning-hero.png

                                                          There was at least 2 full slots of separation between the Graphics and Sound card, as it can only be fitted in the last or second to last slot, the PCI ones. I tried both PCI slots, getting the same results.

                                                          I was thinking... Where does that PCI slots come from? are they directly connected to the B350 chipset? Are they "multiplexed" or something to a single PCIe lane? Do they connect to the Nuvoton Super I/O chip? Does anybody know?

                                                            • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
                                                              ajlueke

                                                              The PCI ports are initialized by the chipset (B350).  Both PCI ports are likely part of a single PCIe "lane".  The interesting thing is, your PCIe 3.0 slot (silver) is fed by the processor.  So somehow, when the motherboard is initializing the PCI device on the B350 chipset, it interferes with the initialization of the Ryzen PCI lanes.  The issue isn't corrected until you reboot.  You can try setting your subsystem to PCI3 3.0 and/or PCIe 2.0 and see if that resolves the issue.  It could be that the auto setting isn't correctly identifying the bus speed on a cold boot.  There should be PCI subsystem settings in your motherboard UEFI.

                                                               

                                                              It may also be possible to resolve the issue with the PCI latency timer.  If the latency timer is set too low, the PCI device will interrupt the GPUs transfers on the bus unnecessarily often, hurting performance.  This may also be incorrectly identifying on a cold boot.   

                                                                • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
                                                                  jocpro

                                                                  I'll check that when I get home from work. By the way, are you assuming that this problem is related to GPU performance? Because is more patent in pure CPU tests...

                                                                    • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
                                                                      ajlueke

                                                                      Hello,

                                                                      I imagine there is some sort of delay in the initialization of your sound card on cold boot that causes the motherboard to incorrectly assign some of the "auto" settings on the PCI bus.  The CPU controls most of your PCIe lanes, so it is also affected.  When you reboot, since the hardware is already on, everything seems to assign correctly.  Also, removing the PCI card fixes the issue as well.

                                                                       

                                                                      The thing I'm not sure of, is if sending your board in for RMA would fix the issue.  It's probable you'd see this behavior no matter what.  It could likely be fixed in UEFI, but it isn't something MSI is probably seeing or testing themselves.  I would make sure to report the issue to them if you haven't already.  Using a sound card that uses the PCIe 1X slots would likely also fix the issue.  But, you can always use the built in sound on the MB as well.  What is the model of soundcard exactly?  Perhaps the vendor has more information I can dig up.

                                                                        • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
                                                                          jocpro

                                                                          It's a Creative Labs Sound Blaster Audigy Platinum eX (Model SB0090, if I'm not mistaken). It looks like this:

                                                                          audigyex_bigs.jpg

                                                                          It's kind of unique as it has an external breakout box digitally connected to the daughterboard... and as I already changed my Mic and Earphones to 1/4 plugs it will be a chore getting them adapted to 1/8 plugs for the onboard sound...

                                                                          Well, I'll see what I can do with the hardware that I have at hand.

                                                                            • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
                                                                              ajlueke

                                                                              Hello jocpro,

                                                                               

                                                                              It looks like your Audigy is a generation 1 correct?  If you notice the PCI connector on the bottom of the card, there are two notches present.  The notch nearest the backplate identifies the card as a 3.3V signaling card, while the other notch is for 5V signaling.  5V was used for PCI 2.1 and all earlier versions, but was dropped in favor of 3.3V in PCI 2.3 (circa 2002).  PCI cards around that time shipped with both notches in order to be compatible with the older 5V PCI slot motherboards, and newer motherboards with only PCI 2.3 slots.  PCI 3.0 eventually dropped support for the 5V only signaling cards altogether.

                                                                               

                                                                              5V has been out of circulation a long time.  While most motherboard manufacturers still have 5V rails to be compatible with the original spec, they only run the 3.3V to the PCIe bus as that is all it uses.  And it looks like the MSI Tomahawk is one of the few B350 based boards to incorporate PCI slots, which is likely why you chose it.  Since your card is old enough to actually accept 3.3V or 5V signaling, this may be what is delaying the initialization on the B350 chipset.  Strangely, the PCI ports on the motherboard have only the 5V notch.  MSI probably assumed this wouldn't matter as modern addin cards accept only 3.3V and that is all they supply the PCI bus.  Your card however, installed in that notch is expecting 5V and it probably takes the chipset a bit of time to negotiate what is going on.

                                                                               

                                                                              The downside is, without PCI ports with the notch in the 3.3V position (closer to the backplate), or a 5V rail for the PCI slots, the issue is likely to persist and be present in any Ryzen CPU or MSI B350 motherboard you purchase.

                                                                               

                                                                              If you manually set your bus speed and/or the PCI latency in UEFI, the initialization may then have time to resolve even on cold boot.

                                                                                • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
                                                                                  jocpro

                                                                                  I think the slot's notch by itself shouldn't be an issue, as the signaling voltage is dependent on the connected pins... as the "universal" (both 3.3V and 5V capable) card can't detect the notch based on the pins that 'should' be instead of the notch... as it has both notches. The missing pins for both notches are grounds, according to the PCI slot pinout, so a 5V only card 'could' detect the notch by means of the ground connections in the other notch location, as a 3.3V only could also do similarly. The issue could be that 'universal' cards must detect the signalling by logic means and this could be the cause of the potential mistiming in intialization. I'll get in contact with the MSI guys with this new info, as I think this is a solid hypothesis that could explain the cause for all the issues.

                                                                                    • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
                                                                                      ajlueke

                                                                                      Good luck!  Testing various older PCI hardware probably isn't that robust since most newer add in cards use the PCIe form factor.  Let us know how MSI responds.

                                                                                        • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
                                                                                          whiskey-foxtrot

                                                                                          Just want to thank you ajlueke for your amazing analysis and insight on this. I've noticed similar issues and most of them have/had other PCI-e add-on cards as well.

                                                                                            • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
                                                                                              jocpro

                                                                                              Yeah, ajlueke is the real MVP here ...
                                                                                              So, you are saying that there's similar issues with PCI Express add-on cars too and not only with Legacy PCI? Can you please elaborate a little more? Do you remember which chipsets where involved?
                                                                                              ---
                                                                                              I've started to think that this issue could have been affecting my older FX 8350 / MSI 970A-G46 combo from before, not in the same way, as the system ran always with the same performance, but now that I've rebuit it with leftover pieces and brought it to my workplace to serve as a small VM server/workstation I've been noticing uncharacteristic blazing fast performance that wasn't there when it was my main system. It doesn't surprise me that it boots way faster than before, as it has like half the hardware connected that it had before, but it feels almost as responsive as the new Ryzen system... I'm falling head over heels in love with my FX... again . So I think that the problem may lay in the sound card more than anything else. Too bad. Well, that card is so old that in couple of years could legally buy a beer...

                                                                                                • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
                                                                                                  kxuping

                                                                                                  The only PCI device I could think that someone could insert into a new AM4 motherboard was exactly that soundcard. I know there are other PCI cards like control boards for rare peripherals.

                                                                                                  • Re: VERY weird Ryzen+RX480 system behavior, please help!
                                                                                                    ajlueke

                                                                                                    Although, you could argue that by including PCI ports, the board manufacturer is asking for who knows what kind of legacy card to be plugged in there.  I ran a Ceton infinitv in my system for a time and had no issues with that (it is PCI-E).  I've actually only observed the issue with legacy PCI cards, but is has cropped up on Intel chipsets as well.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    I actually had a similar experience to yours regarding the FX.  I recently purchased a new case and put the old platform in there along with a single SSD.  That system now only play .mkv rips in the main home theater while the Ryzen system handles gaming and everyday tasks.  The FX system does boot amazingly fast and seems really zippy and responsive.  But a clean install with almost no additional software (drivers, DisplayCal) probably helps.