31 Replies Latest reply on Dec 13, 2016 2:57 PM by patricklibuda

    Win10 - Laggy bootup and random halts - Seems to be driver issue

    carrata

      Hi - And sorry if this is something that someone has noticed already before and it is discussed elsewhere.

       

      About a week ago a customer came in with a Pavilion computer which had multiple issues. Boot-up took several minutes while the loading circle (those small dots) kept rotating very slowly or not at all and welcome screen took about 30 seconds to come up after the loading screen. When I finally managed to login, the mouse movement was very jerky and System resources went above 80% of CPU with no reason at all (There were no visible reason on process monitor). I thought that it must be the HDD issue and swapped new HDD in and reinstalled Windows 10, but shortly after the installation were finished, the problem came back.

       

      Sadly, I made a bad judgment for that machine and pronounced that laptop dead. Now I am pretty sure that it was a bad call... That pavilion had Radeon card.

       

      Yesterday an Acer V5-122P laptop came in... Exactly the same symptoms. I realized that this is not an hardware issue at all and made some debugging. First I checked all the drivers and bios that everything was updated as they should be. During that check up, I noticed that there is a short (60-120 seconds) freeze every time when I tried to open something which engages gpu acceleration somehow (Display settings, Internet Explorer or just waking up the computer from sleep).

       

      I uninstalled AMD drivers that came from Windows Update and noticed that the problem went away immediately after uninstallation was completed. I didn't even had to restart. So I tried to install latest driver from AMD site (Crimson) and the problem came back instantly when the new display driver were installed (and the installer was still running and installing other components).

       

      I had no time today to test older Radeon drivers but I am very sure that those do work only a while because the drivers will be updated automatically and the problematic drivers comes from Microsoft Windows Update server.

       

      Is this really a driver issue or just too random problems that I have encountered?

        • Re: Win10 - Laggy bootup and random halts - Seems to be driver issue
          carrata

          Older driver 15.x works perfectly well. It seems that this is somehow related to that big sticky thread about black screens, but I didn't feel comfortable to write into that thread because of all the warnings and everything on it. It felt like accepting some EULA that I didn't perfectly understood.

          • Re: Win10 - Laggy bootup and random halts - Seems to be driver issue
            carrata

            And because it seems that no one is interested of this problem at all, I will give my 2 cents for it and temporally solve it by myself.

             

            -- Solution removed by author --

            Check answer marked as "Right answer"

             

            This will fix the problem for you for now. However, the real problem is that AMD driver is buggy and Microsoft is pushing it without asking to your computer (without that registry tweak).

             

            Backfire : You cannot get ANY drivers from windows update now. Not even a mouse driver. No. Nothing. Zip'po. Nada! Et niin yhtään mitään!


            Why not use Microsoft Hide and Show updates instead? Because it wont show this AMD driver on update list. It shows HDMI sound driver from the same package, but nothing else.

              • Re: Win10 - Laggy bootup and random halts - Seems to be driver issue
                pinheads

                You cannot stop Windows 10 Automatic Update from installing GPU Drivers. It's happened to me so many times even with the tweaks. The days where we had control of our PCs have gone. I wish AMD would stop giving these Drivers to Microsoft in the first place.

                  • Re: Win10 - Laggy bootup and random halts - Seems to be driver issue
                    carrata

                    Sadly I have to agree. That registry tweak actually did worked about a day, but then today morning I noticed that the GPU driver was updated again. So ... this wasn't the fix either.

                    • Re: Win10 - Laggy bootup and random halts - Seems to be driver issue
                      amduser184

                      pinheads Actually you can stop Windows 10 installing bogus drivers, however it's not as easy an operation as it should be. See https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3073930

                       

                      Note: You also need to download the "Show or hide updates" troubleshooter package to make the changes persist.

                        • Re: Win10 - Laggy bootup and random halts - Seems to be driver issue
                          pinheads

                          But this really isn't a solution. People shouldn't have to start messing about with delving into their Registries and tweaking this and tweaking that and downloading the other. Sometimes, it can do more harm than good to peoples operating systems and can cause problems and furthermore, what about those people that don't come to places like these forums because they aren't really tech savvy enough to understand what's really going on. You can't expect those people to start rooting around in Registeries and deep rooted folders.

                           

                          This is all wrong of Microsoft to be forcing downloads on people. My advice is to leave well alone when it comes to these tweaks that don't really work.

                          • Re: Win10 - Laggy bootup and random halts - Seems to be driver issue
                            carrata

                            Well actually that Hide & Show troubleshooter wont work. I tried that also, but it wont show the incoming GPU driver on the list. Everything else is there, but not the GPU driver which is causing the problem.

                             

                            I am self employed tech support guy for a small business and private sector here in Finland and this problem has rose to be my worst nightmare and this nightmare still goes on and no one (= Microsoft & AMD) seems to be even noticing that there is a serious problem at the moment. Since that Acer I have confirmed same symptoms on 7 different laptops.  I have been working with these little machines since 1994 with a very good success rate and reputation and it took Microsoft forced update and bad AMD driver to make my first ever fixable problem that I cannot solve.

                             

                            At the moment I am looking a way to spoof the driver version for Microsoft update or try to tell the Windows that the GPU update is actually downloaded and installed. While I do agree that registry tweaks and breaking the windows update via registry is not the way, this version spoofing should only jump this faulty update.

                             

                            This situation is actually worse than the Nvidia nightmare year ago! Back then we had an option in Windows 10 to disable hardware driver updates. Today the option is removed.

                            • Re: Win10 - Laggy bootup and random halts - Seems to be driver issue
                              carrata

                              And I stand corrected again.

                               

                              Hide And Show updates might actually work, but the road to success has plenty of big rocks and blind spots.

                               

                              It didn't show any display driver update when I tried to use it first times. I double check the instructions and even tried to use it in different order than the instructions said. This is my latest episode of Path to Success:

                               

                              Before you begin, download these to help you with your journey because you will be offline during the process.

                               

                              If you cannot work at all with your computer, you can try to get your computer into the Fail safe mode before you begin. Easiest way to do this is directly from Windows 10 - even when the computer seems to be very unresponding and programs wont start. (This method doesn't work if your explorer goes into constant restart loop)

                               

                              Remember, that while your computer has this problem you must wait 30-200+ seconds before your computer responds to almost any command.

                               

                              1. Press CTRL-ALT-DEL to get system menu (Wait.... the menu will come eventually )
                              2. Press and hold SHIFT and then choose from right corner RESTART
                              3. Keep holding Shift, until screen goes black.
                              4. Wait until computer goes to trouble shooting mode and ask what to do next
                              5. Choose Troubleshoot
                              6. Choose Advanced Options
                              7. Choose Startup Settings
                              8. Choose Restart
                              9. When computer restarts, choose number 4.

                               

                               

                               

                              Getting to Boot up repair mode directly from Computer startup might be difficult with UEFI bios and todays SSD hard drives, but you can try this:

                               

                              1. Shut down your computer
                              2. Start it up and start pressing Shift+F8 repeately
                              3. Hope that the computer goes to trouble shooting mode
                              4. Repeat.

                               

                              If you cannot do absolutely anything with your computer (Remember, that BSOD is very rare sympton of this problem and if you have constant BSOD's there might be some other problem that you're facing...) or you're having explorer restart loop issue, you could try to access to fail safe little bit more violently.

                               

                              1. Shut down your computer
                              2. Press start to boot it but immediatly start pressing Shut down again until it shuts down.
                              3. Repeat this three times and windows goes to boot-up repair.

                               

                               

                              You can through steps 1, 2  and  4 while your computer is booted into fail safe mode.

                               

                               

                              1. Remove the computer from internet
                              2. Uninstall current display adapter driver from device manager (to allow AMD installer install its own version of GPU driver)
                              3. Uninstall every AMD related stuff with control panel uninstaller (might not be necessary (update: 28.11. ))
                              4. Run AMD clean up utility
                              5. Run Microsoft Disk Cleanup and clean up update related stuff (Tested to be very important step (update: 28.11.))
                              6. Reboot
                              7. Install Crimson 16.1.1 WHQL (Or later if you have time to test which ones work (16.4.1 doesn't))
                              8. Uncheck "Update automatically" to prevent the driver do the dirty work for windows. (This is the part that I keep forgetting!)
                              9. Reboot
                              10. Connect to internet
                              11. Run Hide & Show updates troubleshooter (Update: Repeat to see if there is some left overs...)
                              12. AMD GPU driver should be there this time!
                              13. Try to check updates - no AMD driver.

                               

                               

                              I had tried that before already, but without cleaning up Windows update and that might be the thing this time. Also if I tried to run that Hide&Show troubleshooter without installing AMD Crimson driver first, it didn't found that GPU driver from updates. Maybe because windows hadn't "detected" the device yet? I have no idea...

                               

                              So far so good, but I will be back tomorrow, if it some how reverts to old settings...

                               

                              UPDATE 25.11.2016

                               

                              Previous steps works perfectly on Acer and Lenovo laptops and prevents Windows 10 (Anniversary and previous edition) to automatically install any driver updates for AMD GPU. However I noticed that some HP Laptops still tried to update GPU even that I did everything as ... I instructed. Solution was simple - Run Step 11 again and again, until it wont show any AMD updates anymore. Yes, I know that it sounds stupid, but I made some testing and noticed that in the first run it will detect three different AMD -driver packages and with second run there is still two left.

                               

                              This updated solution helped me to fix two customer laptops today with this same problem.

                               

                              UPDATE 28.11.2016

                              Added information from AMDPhilip and ways to get your machine to Fail Safe mode.

                              2 of 2 people found this helpful
                                • Re: Win10 - Laggy bootup and random halts - Seems to be driver issue
                                  carrata

                                  This is now tested and confirmed.

                                   

                                  Even that phase 5 is confirmed to be a necessary step. I cleaned everything that might have something to do with temp files or updates. If you skip number five it will install the AMD driver from cache even when the computer is offline.

                                   

                                  Phase 11) Do not wander away from the computer. When the list comes up, you must select the AMD drivers and confirm changes. If you leave it there for too long, it will eventually just install the AMD updates again. (Confirmed while playing Master of Orion too long while computer was doing this phase)

                                    • Re: Win10 - Laggy bootup and random halts - Seems to be driver issue
                                      pinheads

                                      Why are you uninstalling the Driver from Device Manager when you should be going into Programs and Features and using the proper AMD Install Manger then afterwards using DDU?? Then afterwards go into the Registry and manually check for AMD leftovers, and also not forgetting to deleted contents from the C/AMD folder as well??

                                       

                                      What you're doing is the same as what the rest of us are doing but just in a slightly different way. I guarantee you will eventually have Microsoft give you a Driver. Not tomorrow, maybe not next week but you'll get it.

                                       

                                      Microsoft have taken control of all updates from now on. The good old days where we had a choice are over. Microsoft are no longer interested in Desktop/Laptop owners anymore. It's all because of Windows being available on mobile devices and Xbox that they want to streamline their service.

                                        • Re: Win10 - Laggy bootup and random halts - Seems to be driver issue
                                          patricklibuda

                                          Just to illustrate pinheads' point: On my system (R9 390), Windows 10 Anniversary Edition basically does that on a daily basis by now (my preferred version is 16.8.2). By the way, a new twist on my system. After uninstalling 16.6 (the current Windows 10 default - at least on my system...) and cleansing the system with DDU, 16.6 reinstalled itself automatically when DDU rebooted my system with the Microsoft default display driver. As soon as Windows 10 had finished loading, there it was back again... I have not yet had the time to check whether this was just a one off or whether Microsoft are actually tightening the thumbscrews even further and I will be stuck with 16.6 no matter how often I try to chuck it off (until Microsoft endeavours to endorse another version).

                                           

                                          P.S.: The only way of preventing Windows 10 replacing 16.8.2 again with 16.6 was to launch the Device Manager, choose graphics card, and then roll back to the previous version. That actually does work, even with the Anniversary Edition! After that I had no more automatic re-installations of 16.6. (However, as I was uncomfortable with basically having two versions of the AMD drivers in my system, I went back to uninstalling 16.6 with the help of DDU and then switching back to 16.8.2 every time Windows 10 decided to take liberties.) AMD Settings can be a bit on the sensitive side and behave a bit erratically. My way around this was by uninstalling AMD Settings via the Control Panel and Software and then re-installing it via the 16.8.2 installation stuff.

                                            • Re: Win10 - Laggy bootup and random halts - Seems to be driver issue
                                              angus_nb

                                              When you run Windows Disk Cleanup, after the initial scan, remember the click on the Cleanup system files button at the lower left.

                                              It will scan again but this time you will have the option of selecting Device Driver Packages.

                                              If the AMD drivers are removed from the system Windows won't have them as an option and will use the default generic drivers.

                                              I kept the computer disconnected from the Internet until I had the AMD driver I wanted to use installed. Then reconnected to the Internet and ran the Windows Hide & Show updates troubleshooter.

                                              Owning a computer is not for the faint of heart.

                                        • Re: Win10 - Laggy bootup and random halts - Seems to be driver issue
                                          carrata

                                          Aaaaand it still not working.

                                           

                                          The Acer that I was fixing still works, but this same routine doesn't work with HP Pavilion 15 (8300 + 8660HD) for some reason. It seems that the news non-whql driver works, but Windows 10 still decides to install 16.9. version over it on next Update cycle.

                                           

                                          This is just maddnes. Maybe I just stop sell AMD-related stuff to people.

                                            • Re: Win10 - Laggy bootup and random halts - Seems to be driver issue
                                              kingfish

                                              And all of this of course is AMD's fault. I see.

                                              When was your last report to the program that is causing all this? How many reports have you (and the others) sent  to Microsoft? They are the ones who disabled the ability to prevent older/different drivers from being installed...which used to work.

                                              Windows 10 issues

                                                • Re: Win10 - Laggy bootup and random halts - Seems to be driver issue
                                                  carrata

                                                  There is no reason to be offensive about this.  I saw your other post (that you linked) as well but I cannot see what is your point there. Do you seriously ask people not to write their AMD problems over here, if it is somehow Windows 10 related? Why and what privileges do you have to make such an request?  There are hundreds of different kind of messages about AMD and Windows 10 combinations and people behind those has different set of skills and if they read you message they might think "Oh well.. maybe I just don't write this here.". If you genuine just tried to be some kind of Forum Moderator with your message, I sincerely hope that you try to be more polite next time. With polite messages you get more authority and people do listen. 

                                                   

                                                  But to answer to your question - Yes, I have reported this to Microsoft also because this is their problem as well, but the root cause is that the latest AMD's whql driver which comes from Windows Update is not working. Latest and newer Non-WHQL driver does work perfectly well, but Microsoft update still overwrites it with 16.9.. That is how the Windows Update works and only part where microsoft is to blaim is that there is no way to prevent this buggy update to be installed in the first place.

                                                   

                                                  I have also had a conf call with Microsoft tech guy and shown the problem for him and it is reported. But still - their system IS working as it should (if you don't count that it is not very user friendly)

                                                   

                                                  The reason why I am ranting about this at the AMD's forums is that I just want to help people with similar problems and do the troubleshooting openly so others won't have to go through these steps just to notice that it is in vain and also that I want this problem to be noticed and hopefully fixed sooner.


                                                  So why I should not write about this problem over here?

                                                    • Re: Win10 - Laggy bootup and random halts - Seems to be driver issue
                                                      kingfish

                                                      You should write about the problem here...no question about that. Reporting it to Microsoft is the right thing to do as well. The overwriting of the preferred graphics driver and the inability to stop/postpone that from happening has been crippled by Microsoft since the Anniversary Update. The hoops we used to jump through to stop this behavior no longer work. This is something that AMD has no control over...so yes, report it on this forum, but the real fault lies with Win10....and Microsoft's changes to the OS that disallows the user to postpone/stop the overwriting.

                                                      It used to be simple to do...just follow Microsoft's guide. This doesn't seem to work anymore > Windows 10 Forums

                                                    • Re: Win10 - Laggy bootup and random halts - Seems to be driver issue
                                                      pinheads

                                                      Well if AMD stopped giving these older Drivers to Microsoft in the first place then we wouldn't be having this problem. Where are Microsoft getting these Drivers?? From AMD!

                                                    • Re: Win10 - Laggy bootup and random halts - Seems to be driver issue
                                                      carrata

                                                      Heh... And works again. I just had to run the update troubleshooter twice.

                                                      1 of 1 people found this helpful
                                                    • Re: Win10 - Laggy bootup and random halts - Seems to be driver issue
                                                      amdphilip

                                                      I have been struggling with this problem on my wife's laptop (HP 15z N200 with Radeon HD 8400 / R3 Series and Radeon HD 8600M Series) for months and this solution seems to have worked!  Thank you.  I have spent probably 40 hours trying one fix or another.  We finally got so broken (reverting the driver one time caused the laptop to crash whenever uploading or thumbnailing pictures) that I just had to do a clean Windows re-install.  That immediately put us back into the original problem.  I followed your instructions and everything is good.  Particularly thank you for mentioning that 16.1.1 works and 16.4.1 does not.  That saved me a lot of time.  My wife doesn't game, she just needs something stable.  There are several other threads in these forums that discuss this same problem, I am going to try and find the ones I was on before and point those folks this way.  Again, thank you, carrata!  Not just for your original solution, but for the way you came back and updated it with all your other findings.

                                                      • Re: Win10 - Laggy bootup and random halts - Seems to be driver issue
                                                        angus_nb

                                                        Thank you very much carrata.

                                                        I had rolled two HP laptops back to 15.7 but one is causing explorer.exe to crash continually. Odd because they are identical machines.

                                                        I will try your method using 16.1.1.

                                                          • Re: Win10 - Laggy bootup and random halts - Seems to be driver issue
                                                            carrata

                                                            I had similar problems with one HP even that I used the routine that I previously mentioned. Redoing everything fixed the problem but I think that I just somehow missed some part or some of the files were locked by windows when I ran the uninstaller. Go figure... With 16.1 driver I cannot remember similar problems. And I have "fixed" several AMD machines by now like this.

                                                             

                                                            Thanks AMDPhilip for those additional instructions! I added them to my original post.

                                                  • Re: Win10 - Laggy bootup and random halts - Seems to be driver issue
                                                    amdphilip

                                                    Also, if you are following these instructions after a clean install you'll need to download these three things before disconnecting from the internet:

                                                     

                                                    Windows show/hide update tool: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3073930#bookmark-1607

                                                    AMD cleanup Utility:  AMD Clean Uninstall Utility

                                                    The 16.1.1 Radeon Driver: AMD Radeon Software Crimson Edition 16.1.1 Hotfix Release Notes

                                                     

                                                    And of course don't forget to save carrata's instructions above.  It took my laptop 20 minutes after re-attaching to the internet to show the updates that needed to by hidden.  Running the show/hide utility before that gave no results (probably because I was on a fresh re-install).

                                                    • Re: Win10 - Laggy bootup and random halts - Seems to be driver issue
                                                      lep

                                                      I had this problem with my Acer V5 122P and I got a techie to follow Carrata's guide.  It worked for a while but as soon as I went to YouTube the problem started all over again.  I decided to do a windows reset and immediately after it was done I disconnected from the internet.  The system is working perfectly and since I use it only for my music, that is fine.  I will leave it as is until after Christmas (I need to hear my Christmas music) and will see what happens after that.  Incidentally, the AMD device has been replaced by Windows adapter in the Device Manage - I have no idea why this has happened!