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Re: BOMBSHELL: NO Ryzen 4000 Series "Zen 3" support for 300/400 series chipset motherboards

Either way neither AMD nor Intel has a future proof board since DDR5 and USB4 will definitely require new engineering, so it looks like 2022 for both camps for new sockets required on all fronts. Intel's behind the eight ball, but they're still going to be more expensive than AMD, both because they're more expensive to manufacture, but also because Intel cares more about profit per unit whereas AMD, which is climbing back from a record low user share still, is willing to take a lower profit margin. According to Mindfactory, and cited by SegmentNext, https://segmentnext.com/2019/04/11/ryzen-intel-again-outsell/

So AMD sold almost double the volume of Intel, yet only amounted to 4% more revenue, so Intel is not likely to change their pricing structure much.

As far as enthusiasts, as well as people who like to go long on any major investment, go, they have little reason to upgrade considering the massive performance improvements on the horizon. For mainstream users, the old stock 400 series chipset boards and 2000 series CPUs are still massive sellers, and the 3000 series will soon get the axe as well. This doesn't even take into account the used market, which of course doesn't contribute any to AMD's bottom line.

Personally I think neither the AMD 4000 series nor the Intel counterparts will make much of a wave simply because of the new motherboards which are required, and the performance of existing components which is more than sufficient to feed next generation GPUs. Also you have to throw into the mix new consoles releasing later this year which may carry price tags of $500 or more.

deksman2
Adept II

Re: BOMBSHELL: NO Ryzen 4000 Series "Zen 3" support for 300/400 series chipset motherboards

To be fair, Zen 3 was always been known to be the LAST Zen iteration on AM4.

We knew this much for a few years now based on AMD's release schedules, etc.

So, there's nothing new about that.

Furthermore, Intel's upcoming CPU's being backwards compatible will depend on a few things... such as memory support.

I strongly doubt their next CPU release will include DDR5 support (because that requires a RAM socket change and pin layout change).

AMD said they don't plan on introducing DDR5 until 2021... which means, Zen 4 will be coming on a NEW motherboard which supports Zen 4 and DDR5... this new mobo will probably have a similar life expectancy as AM4 (longer term support on Zen CPU's such as Zen 4 and Zen 5 - at least until RAM standards change again to say DDR6).

However, given that AMD also doesn't have official support for Zen 2 on that slide for the B350/X370 mobos, we know OEM's still integrated Zen 2 support into those mobos anyway.

So it might end up being the same with Zen 3 - they may have to take out Athlons and some Zen 1 CPU's from the equation though, but that wouldn't be too bad because by now, most people might have moved away from Zen 1, and if they hadn't, they soon would upgrade to at least Zen + or Zen 2 (2600 or 3600 most likely... which would probably give them a CPU which is still supported by the BIOS and upgrade it to include Zen 3).

This AMD's move is no indication that this is how things will be from this point on.

Even when they had 50% market share, AMD still pushed for same socket support and greater modularity than Intel.

So, we have (as of yet) no reason to think AMD will be insisting on changing mobos with every new CPU generation - in fact it seems unlikely.

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Re: BOMBSHELL: NO Ryzen 4000 Series "Zen 3" support for 300/400 series chipset motherboards

HardwareUnboxed (a reputable source) also asked more questions directly to AMD for clarification, and these are the responses he got:

  • No official support of Ryzen 4000 series chips on 300 and 400 series boards.
  • AMD will NOT provide necessary code to the OEMs (MSI, ASUS, etc...) to implement Ryzen 4000 series support on 300 and 400 series boards.
  • Without this support, OEMs will be UNABLE to add support for 300 and 400 series boards.
  • All 300 and 400 chipset boards will be unable to support Ryzen 4000 series chips no matter if the OEMs want to or not.

The first 5 minutes of the video below talks about this. So this is how it stands right now, so unless there is a major backlash against AMD like there was with the 3000 series situation, it's not going to change.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av2hUxKypkE

sol
Adept II

Re: BOMBSHELL: NO Ryzen 4000 Series "Zen 3" support for 300/400 series chipset motherboards

First I want to say to everyone from AMD: you guys did an amazing job and earned a lot of respect and love among enthusiasts and users including me. Hope at least some of you will read this.

Now to business. We have: 

1. In this interview (18:30) James Prior said both "Until 2020" and "Through 2020" 

2. Yes, a socket and a chipset are different things 

3. Yes, 16mb bios flash memory limitations seems to be kinda real.

So yeah, technically you (AMD) may flip this thing as you wish and formally maybe stay in a somewhat rightful position.

Still, no one's gonna believe you didn't know what users really mean asking about socket longevity. Actually James said himself "... beautiful dropping compatibility with just a bios flash". Right after "through 2020" phrase. 

Also no one is gonna believe that engineers who were capable of constructing such a ridiculously complex piece of art as Rome can't solve a bios flash memory problem. Especially taking into account 32mb bios flash on MSI max, for example. 

Ofc i understand only a part of complications you r dealing with as a company - shareholders, glofo, mobo guys etc. There is a lot of pressure, i understand. 

But what's happening right now really may escalate and escalate quickly up to the point where it will be a PR wildfire killing all that hard earned respect and trust i mentioned in the beginning. It will destroy your image of a very rare consumer-oriented trustful corporation and close this brilliant long term healthy marketing strategy for you forever. And all these are about to happen right before Zen3 launch. 

So i'm asking you just to think about it for one more minute, cuz it's not about socket, it's about how people are gonna perceive you from now on:

Whatever you'll gain by ditching most of AM4 support right now - is it worth loosing that all?

Best regards, your friendly feedbacker.

3700x

5700xt

x570

erroneus
Adept I

Re: BOMBSHELL: NO Ryzen 4000 Series "Zen 3" support for 300/400 series chipset motherboards

Well one thing is for sure, I'm done recommending AMD to friends and acquaintances, where upgrade path is important, because right now you can't buy an AMD product that has any upgrade path and even if you could, can you trust them again? AMD don't make promises when you are the underdog, and then break those promises and trust, when things are going well. I'm going to straight up warn people now, when talking PC builds, that if they choose AMD, they have no upgrade path, which I already know now, will not go down well with lots of people.

And yeah the whole reasoning with ROM size, is straight up a blatant lie, which is another violation of trust. Multiple motherboard manufacturers has advertised with zen3 support on their AM4 motherboards, because there is no reason not too, as there is no technical hindrance, other then the fake ones you create AMD.

I hope you realize and reconsider how huge a mistake you are making right now. Not only regarding consumer trust, but also this will have an impact on sales of Zen 3 and other AMD products.

boyfromhell
Adept I

Re: BOMBSHELL: NO Ryzen 4000 Series "Zen 3" support for 300/400 series chipset motherboards

That's outrageous!!!!! Why do I have to buy motherboard from 500 series to be able to run Zen 3?!
400 series and 500 series have still the same AM4 socket.
That's pointless to buy motherboard from 500 series now because of the Zen 4 that will be on the new AM5 socket (600 series, right?). Zen 4 will be much more powerful. If there eventually will be no support, I won't even look at Zen 3.
Instead I will buy AM5 motherboard and rock Zen 4. It's just like having Intel motherboards and CPUs. If you want a new generation CPU, you will have to buy new motherboard. That's really hurting me as the consumer, because If I want to get new CPU, I will have to buy new motherboard. I've already bought B450 Gaming Plus MAX. So what now? Now AMD says, no no no, If you want Zen 3, you buy 500 series or bye bye. I'm not a wealthy person. I can upgrade my PC only once in couple of years.

I hope AMD will change their mind. The reason (maybe there are more reasons) why you can't give the support is the ROM size. Well, I bought the motherboard from MAX series to get rid of this problem and now I'm a little bit triggered.
The reason why I bought AMD is the AM4 support. Please AMD, it's the last AM4 CPU and I'm sure, it will be very powerful. Give the 300 series and 400 series support.

varkon
Adept I

Re: BOMBSHELL: NO Ryzen 4000 Series "Zen 3" support for 300/400 series chipset motherboards

Same here. Bought the B450M MORTAR MAX precisely for the reason that it's BIOS was large enough to accommodate future products. So it pains me (both mentally and in my wallet) to see such a blatant discrepancy in AMD's otherwise great line of products.

I sincerely hope that AMD will take into account user feedback, and adjust course on this one.

pokester
MVP

Re: BOMBSHELL: NO Ryzen 4000 Series "Zen 3" support for 300/400 series chipset motherboards

To be fair, Zen 3 was always been known to be the LAST Zen iteration on AM4.

We knew this much for a few years now based on AMD's release schedules, etc.

 

So, there's nothing new about that.

I know I even posted the slide above showing that fact. 

Did I say it wasn't?

 

Furthermore, Intel's upcoming CPU's being backwards compatible will depend on a few things... such as memory support.

I strongly doubt their next CPU release will include DDR5 support (because that requires a RAM socket change and pin layout change).

Intel says their next Gen Board will work with the next 2 Gen CPU's. I never said Intel's would be DDR5, in fact I said DDR4.

 

AMD said they don't plan on introducing DDR5 until 2021... which means, Zen 4 will be coming on a NEW motherboard which supports Zen 4 and DDR5... this new mobo will probably have a similar life expectancy as AM4 (longer term support on Zen CPU's such as Zen 4 and Zen 5 - at least until RAM standards change again to say DDR6).

I don't doubt this and made no comment on the matter at all.

 

However, given that AMD also doesn't have official support for Zen 2 on that slide for the B350/X370 mobos, we know OEM's still integrated Zen 2 support into those mobos anyway.

In fact most do. That is the point of pointing out the inaccuracy of the information and how it has changed since 2016.

The slide I referenced does list support on x370 and B350 for Zen2, it states selective bios update needed. 

 

So it might end up being the same with Zen 3 - they may have to take out Athlons and some Zen 1 CPU's from the equation though, but that wouldn't be too bad because by now, most people might have moved away from Zen 1, and if they hadn't, they soon would upgrade to at least Zen + or Zen 2 (2600 or 3600 most likely... which would probably give them a CPU which is still supported by the BIOS and upgrade it to include Zen 3).

Yes they should and I believe they could. AMD however has said they won't. Did you read their statement? I sure hope this ends up happening.

 

This AMD's move is no indication that this is how things will be from this point on.

Even when they had 50% market share, AMD still pushed for same socket support and greater modularity than Intel.

So, we have (as of yet) no reason to think AMD will be insisting on changing mobos with every new CPU generation - in fact it seems unlikely.

I made no prediction that future AMD sockets would not support more than one gen of CPU at all. If I was to guess if they would I would say yes. As historically AMD has done great with this. 

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pokester
MVP

Re: BOMBSHELL: NO Ryzen 4000 Series "Zen 3" support for 300/400 series chipset motherboards

"Either way neither AMD nor Intel has a future proof board since DDR5 and USB4 will definitely require new engineering, so it looks like 2022 for both camps for new sockets required on all fronts."

While this is accurate for 2022 aside from IMHO the Intel is at least accurate on being future proof in 2020 for their refresh in 2021. So buy a board for the upcoming chip and you will be able to put the refresh chip on it too in 2021.

Buy and AMD board now and only be able to support Ryzen 4xxx aka Zen 3. 

So there is still truth in Intel's claim, AMD is still calling it future proof yet will not support future processors. 

"So AMD sold almost double the volume of Intel, yet only amounted to 4% more revenue, so Intel is not likely to change their pricing structure much."

I agree. I hope however they do get more competitive. However you look at the money Apple makes with less than 10% share. It wouldn't matter if a company had 100% share if they didn't make profit. 

I just hate that AMD is making the choice to lose the sale on so many upgrade processors that would have netted big bucks. 

I know I won't even entertain a new board now until DDR5 is out.

About the only purchase I can see making CPU wise, might be an R9 for my B450 board in a year or two. Likely that would be second hand and only if the board holds up. 

I just hate that I made the choice of board and processor I did as my plan was to use the r5 3600 then get a top end R7 4xxx for it when it came out. 

I can't reiterate enough that AMD should have never even made claims about future proof boards unless they planned to honor it, or at least give some rebate because we now have to get a new board to move forward.

I truly believe a lot of users bought b450 boards believing the statement and had they known would have just bought x570 boards. Why B550 is so late to the party is still a mystery too.  

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pjw3bst3r
Adept I

Re: BOMBSHELL: NO Ryzen 4000 Series "Zen 3" support for 300/400 series chipset motherboards

I purchased an Asus CH7 X470 board for my 3700X in full expectation that I would be able to upgrade to Zen 3, I could have purchased an X570 board but I didn't need PCIE4 and mostly I didn't want an active chipset fan as I build my rigs for silence.

 

I was led to believe by AMD's promises regarding support through 2020 that my X470 board would support Zen 3, as we knew the chips were going to be released within that period. We also knew that Zen 4 would be released in 2021 most likely with DDR5 support, a new chipset and potentially a new socket. It therefore made sense that Zen 3 would be the last in the line to be supported by the current boards, this fitted in nicely with the 2020 promise.

 

The lack of BIOS capacity needed for support of Zen 3 is obviously a non-issue given that Gigabytes entire line-up of X570 boards only have 16Mb BIOS ROMs. A workaround for any potential issues is bound to be possible, especially for the many earlier generation boards like mine that have 32Mb BIOS ROMs.

 

I was really happy to be able to switch back to AMD after they finally became relevant again in the CPU sector, especially as they appeared to take customer loyalty seriously with their promises of long-term platform life with AM4. This was such a marked difference to Intel who provided no upgradeability to their systems despite no meaningful changes to CPU design.

 

The only logical reason behind this move is that AMD are wanting to maximise profits with the release of Zen 3. With the new chips it is likely Intel will be made irrelevant, and everyone wanting to switch or upgrade (the entire PC enthusiast sector) will now have to buy a new board.

 

This just seems like the type of cynical manipulative move that we have come to expect from Intel & Nvidia and I am really disappointed that AMD have proved themselves to be no better than the competition in this regard. Unfortunately it seems customer loyalty will always loose out to cold hard cash at the end of the day.