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nec_v20
Challenger

Navi Pricing

I am getting a very sinking feeling about the upcoming Navi and what it bodes for AMD and the Radeon Group in particular.

There are perhaps a handful of games that the Vega VII can beat an Nvidia 1080 Ti in; however the Vega VII is selling for between £650-£700 whereas you can get a used 1080 Ti (with a far superior cooler such as the EVGA 1080 Ti SC2) for around £480.

Back when the original Vega was about to be launched I was in the market for a higher end graphics card.

Until that point I had bought cards from Matrox, ATI and then AMD. The reason why I wanted a higher end graphics card than the RX 480 (GigaByte Gaming G1 RX 480 8GB) was because I wanted to play Fallout 4 at 2160p with everything at the highest settings at 60 FPS.

So I patiently waited to see what AMD would be bringing out with their much hyped Vega 64 and, when it did come out as the Vega FE (which when it launched I dubbed the "Eff-You"), I turned around and bought a new EVGA 1080 Ti SC2 for £670 - because of the mining craze I managed to sell my RX480 (after EBAY got their cut and shipping) for £90 more than I originally paid for it.

Now, with Navi I am getting the feeling of Déjà Moo (When you know you have experienced this BS before) where AMD will be trying to sell a card which is mid-tier (at its best it will be kicking around the 2070 level) for a price which will make people say, "HELL NO!" once again.

To this day whenever I see the term "Vega 64" it leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

You only get one chance to make a first impression and AMD blew it with Vega, I really hope that the reports of the price that the new Navi cards are supposed to come at are false, otherwise AMD will be sitting on a whole bunch of GPUs nobody wants to buy; only this time there won't be a mining craze to fudge the numbers.

Tags (2)
28 Replies
jorgemd
Adept II

Re: Navi Pricing

Whatever, the prices are meticulously approved considering the worldwide market, company sales to keep on selling the past models and to be attractive to the new one (sometimes this last doesn't happen), and they consider the other models and brands and of course, the budget and company profit. Finally the result is a higher price sometimes with the perception of expensive or cheap, where the users experience and budget starts the long discussions.

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colesdav
MVP

Re: Navi Pricing

Here is some information on Navi. 

Watch here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy0Q75xCwDU  400 Million game on Radeon. Vega Radeon VII & GCN for High Performance Compute. Navi GPU for gaming on PC Console & Cloud. In Sony PlayStation. Navi new RDNA architecture. New CU high IPC +25%. +50% Perf/Watt. 10% > RTX2070. Launches in July.

Fingers crossed it will be a great Performance / Price.

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amdbooger
Adept II

Re: Navi Pricing

I too felt a little disappointed initially, but AMD did make it abundantly clear that the NAVI release slated for 7/7, was their "mid range" Navi products, specifically made to target and kick around with the 2070.  AMD never said that these Navi cards (Navi 10) were meant to compete in the high end, that is for Navi 20 in 2020, and the Radeon VII now. 

As far as Vega is concerned, Vega did exactly what AMD claimed it would do.  It WAS a "high end" card.  The only card (consistently) faster than it was the 1080ti.  I had the regular 1080 (Asus ROG Strix) in my sons PC, and the Vega 64 in mine...they were pretty much identical in performance.  So, there was literally ONE consumer grade/gaming GPU that was faster than Vega 64.  I would call that pretty high end.  Everybody (speaking in general, not directly about you) acts as though IF there is SOMETHING out there faster than AMD's flagship GPU, it suddenly cannot be considered "high end".  I think this is a bit absurd.  I myself am guilty of this...I must admit that i wish AMD could have the bragging rights of having the FASTEST card out there sometimes.

But, what AMD does do...is deliver a "high end experience", for a fraction of the price.  As far as Vega pricing,  It has been confirmed that it was retailers, NOT AMD, who gouged the prices on the Vega line, as demand was through the roof because of miners.  As you can see today, AMD vowed that would not happen again with the Radeon VII launch, and it didn't...they were good on their word.  I got mine, new, for LESS than the advertised MSRP of $699, i paid $679 on NewEgg.  Furthermore, it comes with $119 in add-on value. 

As for Radeon VII performance, it has really matured.  As of this writing, in any benchmark i run, it is either is barely behind, equal to or beating a EVGA SC RTX 2080.  This is a reference Radeon VII VS a overclocked 2080, and it still manages to win and achieve parity with a card that cost over $100 more on NewEgg.  Driver maturity has really leveled the playing field, and in many cases, tilted it to the Radeon VII.  I cannot argue that value wise, a used 1080ti is the best way to go right now.  However i feel the Radeon VII with its MASSIVE 16gb of HBM2, is pretty much future proof for at least the next 5 years. 

THIS is what AMD is good at.  THIS is why, through the years, AMD has won me over from team green and Intel.  The fact that they make it possible for me to have a high end experience, for less money (generally) out of my pocket...makes it worth it to me.  Sounds corny, but i feel like AMD is the "working man's" tech company.  While Nvidia and Intel are pretty much for the elitist, who think anything other than a 9900k and a 2080ti is "garbage".....(lol, this was me 2004-2010).  

For me, i care about "feeling good" about the companies i give my money to.  Nvidia and Intel both lost me because i felt they were a bit too shady and deceptive with their practices.  Like Apple, i find them to be anti-consumer.  While every company obviously must make a profit, i find Intel and Nvidia to take it to the point of predatory and deceptive business practices.  Until that changes, i'm sticking with team red, even if it means i have to endure gaming with marginally less FPS.  

Side story:  I still have a socket AM3+ system running a FX-8350 and crossfire 6970's that i can game comfortably on.  Thinking of giving it to my nephew.     

colesdav
MVP

Re: Navi Pricing

Pretty sure a GTX1080 is about 5% faster at 2K and about 8% faster at 4K than an AIB RX Vega 64 such as ROG Strix Vega 64 . I do not think Vega did what AMD claimed it would do. Far too much power draw and some new architecture features did not turn up. It was about 1 year late. No real IPC gains. Run Vega 64 at same GPU clock and Memory speed as a FuryX and the Vega is slightly slower. Also Fury X HBM overclock using Sapphire Trixx or MSI Afterburner was locked in AMD drivers just  before Vega launched, and it is still locked today. RX Vega 64 Liquid  beats a GTX1080 reference, at a cost of  350 Watts power draw in Turbo Mode versus 180W on the GTX1080.

Since Nvidia RTX launch the RX Vega 64 is more of a mid range GPU, sitting in between the RTX2060 and RTX2070.

The Radeon VII does not beat an RTX2080 based on benchmarks I see.

GPU prices have dropped and there are deals on both Nvidia and AMD GPU's including free games with both because of the Mining crash. I believe that is because there is too much supply chain inventory - cards that would have gone to miners now wait for gamers to buy, but new GPUs arrive soon.

Nvidia RTX2070 is slightly more expensive than a Sapphire RX Vega 64 Nitro  where I am at the moment, both give free games.
The RTX2070 is faster.
In my experience the Nvidia drivers are much more stable on Windows 10 and Nvidia have better drivers on Linux, including a GUI. 
The AIB RTX2070 can be purchased in 2 slot high form factor. 
That justifies additional cost to me.  

I am sure an AIB manufacturer could improve Radeon VII with a fully populated VRM, a dual BIOS so some bios mods could  burn more power and an AIO cooler like the RX Vega 64 Liquid or Fury X but with the option to add a proper AMD high speed pull fan or a bigger dual fan radiator or both. I wait to see if such a Radeon VII turns up. I do not think it will though. 

I really hope Navi does well.
Sapphire is rumoured to be producing an AIO  liquid cooled version of it. 

amdbooger
Adept II

Re: Navi Pricing

Disclaimer here, i game at 1080p, so i do my benches at 1080p.  My target is 144fps/144hz 

"The Radeon VII does not beat an RTX2080 based on benchmarks I see."

Radeon Vii vs RTX 2080, AMD is the better buy now?!? - YouTube 

It wins in plenty of RECENT benchmarks, i have my own benchmarks i can include as well (they are 1080 though).  At launch, i would agree with you, not so much now that drivers have matured a bit.  Its more of a "trading blows" scenario.

Sure, NOW Vega is more of a mid range card...but at the time of its release and until the RTX line was launched, only the 1080ti really "beat" it.  The Vega 64 and the standard 1080 were pretty much neck and neck on most games i played.  My point was that, at the time of its release, it definitely was a high end card.  the 2nd or 3rd fastest video card available to gamers until RTX was released.

As for the price of a Vega 64, it can be had for 399 new, the Sapphire Nitro edition on NewEgg right now.  The cheapest 2070 that isn't a refurb is 80 bucks more.  While it does not beat the 2070, it comes close enough to be considered a competitor, and 80 dollars cheaper.

I have to disagree about Nvidia drivers being better on Windows 10.  Having 2 machines with AMD and 2 with Nvidia...i find no discernible or significant difference between the two.  That is just anecdotal evidence i know, but it has been my personal experience.

I think Navi 10 will do just fine, provided people understand that its not going to de-throne the 2080ti.  Every time AMD announces a new GPU launch, people hype it up and only care about one thing:  "Will it beat a 1080TI" (Vega 64)  and now: "Will it beat a 2080TI" (Radeon VII and now Navi 10)

Mind you, AMD never claimed that either of these products were meant to beat Nvidia's flagship GPU's.  People just WANT them to, and are disappointed when they don't meet that unrealistic expectation. 

AMD is all about the value of FPS per Dollar spent, and in most comparisons i see, they win in that category more often than not.

There is no denying that if you must have the FASTEST gaming computer and do not care about money/value or you have a lot of money to spend, Intel, Nvidia is the way to go.  However, i think these are things that most people should, and do, consider when making a purchasing decision.   

nec_v20
Challenger

Re: Navi Pricing

I am a mod on a tech Discord Sever which has about 2,500 members and as such I have a bit of a finger on the pulse of what real people want and need with regard to a graphics card.

For quite a few months now those people (with the help of my advice) have held off buying Nvidia because of the release of Navi. There really isn't much of an alternative to Nvidia on the part of AMD.


The Vega 64 has a gaming performance about equal to a 2060 and both of them are just not worth the money for the performance they deliver, although the 2060 is cheaper. So if they were going to buy a card, at the moment it would be Nvidia hands down.


There are two reasons I could give them to hold off on buying a graphics card over the past few months and both of them have to do with Navi:


1) Navi could come out at a good price/performance value. The fact that AMD is dumping HBM2 in favour of GDDR6 and also the yield of the 7nm chips would suggest that AMD could put out well performing cards at a far lower price than Nvidia.


2) Navi would have to underbid Nvidia in price, and because of that Nvidia will react by lowering their prices (as they have done in the past) and the people I have been talking to will get a far better deal on an Nvidia card after the release of Navi than before - without AMD gaining any benefit.


People are not "Red Team" or "Green Team" they are "Wallet Team" and the wallets they are fans of are their own.


Lisa Su talked about "Loving gamers" and I hope that love is not of the kind that a python has for a mouse.

When Navi is properly announced with the pricing, the people of my Discord Server will be turning to me to advise them with regard to what they should buy, and although I am partial to AMD and not really a great admirer of Nvidia, if AMD pull another "Vega" with regard to their pricing then I will have no other option but to recommend they go with Nvidia, who, if AMD brings their GPU out just under the price of Nvidia, will get kicked out of the market when Nvidia inevitably underbids AMD in price.


Nvidia's earnings so far this year have been mediocre at best, and that implies that the sentiment on the Discord Server where I am a mod is indicative for the market for graphics cards in general. AMD has a great opportunity to make a killing in that market if they don't get stupidly greedy - but hell, it's the Radeon Group we are talking about, so I personally am not holding my breath.


And if AMD does get greedy and lets the marketdroids and salescritters dictate the company policy then I fear that Nvidia will get a boost in sales and AMD will get the cold shoulder - once again.

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amdbooger
Adept II

Re: Navi Pricing

Agree mostly with what you have here.....except that "people are not red team or green team".  There is definitely a sizeable demographic of fanboys who will and do buy based on brand, and brand alone.  This is with any consumer item, cars, food...you name it.  People are constantly buying based on brand and brand alone, regardless of industry.  While you are also correct that there is another sizeable demographic, who do not care at all about brand name, and shop only with their wallet.  Case and point:  All you  have to do is take the side of Nvidia or AMD in the comments section of any tech article regarding GPU's....and watch the sparks fly.    

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nec_v20
Challenger

Re: Navi Pricing

If you look at the Steam Survey for GPUs you will find that the Nvidia 1050 Ti has TWO TIMES the amount of users THAN ALL OTHER USERS OF AMD GPUs PUT TOGETHER!

But wait, it gets worse, if you look at the the prevalence of the 1060 users then you will see that it is more than THREE TIMES the amount of users THAN ALL OTHER USERS OF AMD GPUs PUT TOGETHER!

I don't know where Lisa Su pulled the BS numbers she spouted her "400 Million" from - unless of course she was including Console Peasants, in which case she was being very dishonest - but if AMD wants to make a dent in Nvidia's hegemony then the price had better be right.

Another thing to consider is that the "+10% compared to the 2070" is completely bogus considering that the game they compared the new Navi to is heavily biased towards AMD GPUs in general.

The Vega 64 already outperforms the 2070 in the title "Strange Brigades" by about 10% - so that really isn't much of a recommendation for the new Navi flagship.

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nec_v20
Challenger

Re: Navi Pricing

As I replied below, AMD, in the Steam Survey, has less GPU representation with all of their products added together than the 1050 Ti.

So much for "Red Team" fanaticism.

The "Green Team" is winning every contest with the "Red Team" walking away.

If AMD wants to create a paradigm shift, it can ONLY do so on the basis of price - because the overwhelming prejudice is directed Nvidia's way.

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