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red5
Challenger

Re: If You Are Interested in Zen Did You Know It Will Not Run On Anything Other Than Windows 10?

Microsoft forced and tricked people into upgrading to Windows 10. Novice users ended up with a totally different system without even knowing what happened. I would say any 'adoption' rates are extremely unreliable. I'm sure you all know people who called you asking you to fix their computer only to find out that the Windows 10 upgrade was pushed to their system. I would have a hard time believing I'm the only person who has seen this. Actually I know for a fact it's common because I work at an IT company that does managed services and they've had several issues with it. So the adoption rates of Win7 and Win10 are in no way apples-to-apples.

ajlueke
Grandmaster

Re: If You Are Interested in Zen Did You Know It Will Not Run On Anything Other Than Windows 10?

I gravitated a bit more toward what he asked immediately afterward.

"I would really like to know how many of you think you may be able to run the OS of your choice on the new Zen platform and apart from being informed by the statement above feel that they have been honestly informed by AMD with regard to their policy with regard to over 60% of Windows users who have not adopted Windows 10 as a platform of their choice"

I didn't take the "statement above" at face value and assume Windows 7 and 8.1 simply wouldn't boot on Ryzen, and I do feel I have been honestly informed by AMD.   AMD baked new goodies into Ryzen that required kernel updates from the Windows OS (such as AMDs SMT implementation).  Microsoft in turn, opted to only make those updates to Windows 10, which prompted AMD to declare Ryzen supported on Windows 10 only as it is the only OS that will support all of Ryzen's features.  Why buy the processor at all if you don't plan to take advantage of all the features?  That being said, I imagine Windows 7 and 8.1 will boot on Ryzen.  It is an x86 processor and supports the legacy instruction sets.  It might be a glitch filled affair, as it differs considerable from AMDs previous designs, but time will tell.  It would be similar to running Windows XP on a Sky Lake processor today.  It will probably boot, but there will likely be issues and no driver support to resolve them.

As for Kaby Lake, it is similar enough to Sky Lake that I doubt users will have many issues at all.  In fact, Anandtech did their Kaby Lake review using Windows 7.  Test Bed and Setup - The Intel Core i7-7700K (91W) Review: The New Out-of-the-box Performance Champi... 

icemyth
Adept I

Re: If You Are Interested in Zen Did You Know It Will Not Run On Anything Other Than Windows 10?

JayzTwoCents did a review for Kaby lake on windows 8 and he ran into issues because he was overclocking, so he had to return to the original clocks. Also the OS identified that the CPU was Baby Lake. Now, what was interesting in the last thing he said about AMD CPUs, Kaby Lake had no issues (was able to work) because it is built on top of Sky Lake but AMD Ryzen is a complete new and different processor in-compre to previous generations so it is not supported and he will have to test it when it is released.

Video link: What happens when you install Windows 8 on a Kaby Lake system?? - YouTube

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ajlueke
Grandmaster

Re: If You Are Interested in Zen Did You Know It Will Not Run On Anything Other Than Windows 10?

I can understand that sentiment, but the numbers don't indicate users switching back from forced upgraded machines.  The OS has trended pretty much identically with Windows 7 and there is no evidence to indicate that will change.  I think as I said before, we will likely see Windows 10 as the predominant Windows OS in early 2018.  My company is currently still on Windows 7, but the process has begun to switch the entire enterprise over to Windows 10.  As new client machines are purchase from the preferred vendor (HP in this case) the client machines comes with Windows 10 and 7th generation Intel Processors.  Since Intel doesn't recommend anything other than Windows 10 for 7th generation Intel, HP ships all new models that way.  To maintain consistency across the enterprise, my company will in turn shift everything over to Windows 10 this year.  So Microsoft's strategy is working, you can expect most major companies to follow suit for similar reasons, and the OS adoption rate will only climb.

Most private users just buy ready made machines from Best Buy which will already have Windows 10 loaded on them.  For those of us building custom machines things are a little bit different.  But we make up the vast minority of PC users, and thus can't expect Microsoft to cater to our market.

However, I personally upgraded both my machines, an FX-8350 based primary gaming and video server, and a smaller A10-7850K Kaveri based client PC for media consumption to Windows 10 when the upgrade became available and haven't looked back (RIP Infinitv 4 ).  I haven't had any crashes or any unusual behavior from Windows 10.  I have used the taskbar to pin apps since that feature was introduced in Vista.  As such, the way I use the OS hasn't really changed since Vista.  Windows Vista, 7, 8, 8.1 and 10 all have similar desktop UIs.  Yes, you loaded into the start screen in Windows 8, and that was a little jarring.  But just clicking the desktop button loaded the old familiar Windows 7 desktop. 

That being said, I do have some experience with the issues you are talking about.  I also built a couple PCs for my elderly parents to use a while back.  One is a desktop they use to Skype with the grandkids and access the web.  I upgraded this PC to Windows 10 as well and they have had no issues.  This PC is based off a DDR2 Phenom II 940 I purchased in 2009.  Still runs just fine.

The second PC was built to store and playback my parents collection of older (1930s-1950s) movies.  Most of these are played back from rips of the disk.  They used Windows Media Center for the playback, and liked that quite a bit.  The system is a A8-3850 Llano based system that is also humming along nicely.  Eventually they received some messages about Windows auto updating to Windows 10 and of course, they didn't opt out.  So the update just happened on its own, and of course Windows Media Center was removed.  Now Microsoft did replace it with Windows DVD player, but I have found that software to be virtually unusable.  The problem was resolved by installing a third party software I had a key for (PowerDVD) and they have been able to play movies fine ever since.  But I do see how that process is problematic, since most novice users as you mentioned fail to opt out, and probably aren't aware that features they use (Media Center in this case) won't be accessible if they do upgrade.  They are then left with a PC that no longer does what they want it too.  After PowerDVD was installed they liked that enough and decided not to switch back.

Does the fact they ignore a small market segment make me hate Microsoft?  No, they felt not many users utilized Media Center and thus those that were impacted by it's removal were a minimal market segment.  My parents likely would of had a harder time without my help, but I can understand why Microsoft decided what they did.  They have an agenda (Whether the agenda benefits anyone may be a topic for a separate discussion) for what they want their OS to be and how they want it to work with other devices.  Holding up that agenda to accommodate a few users isn't going to happen.  But I do understand why such behavior would stoke the ire of the enthusiast community.

red5
Challenger

Re: If You Are Interested in Zen Did You Know It Will Not Run On Anything Other Than Windows 10?

I've loaded Win 10 onto 2 of my LAN gaming machines, but honestly have barely messed with them. I'll try to do more with them in the coming weeks just to familiarize myself. I'm not sure what I'll do with the rest of my gaming machines. They're mostly all licensed for Win 7 Pro which works great, and I certainly don't want to pay for a bunch of Win 10 licenses.  My personal machine is also Win 7 Pro and I just can't see shelling out the cash for Win 10 unless it is an absolute necessity when I build my Ryzen rig. (not to open a whole licensing can of worms)

nec_v20
Challenger

Re: If You Are Interested in Zen Did You Know It Will Not Run On Anything Other Than Windows 10?

I have seen the comparison between DX11 and DX12 and in performance and DX12 comes out a piss-poor second. And there is no excuse for it, so don't give me any twaddle about "oh it's new and it will have some problems". It is not new, it has been around for developers for four years now and after all that time it has a craptastic performance - seems to be par for the course for M$ these days.

Vulkan has not been around all that long but as opposed to DX12 it actually surpasses DX11 in performance.

Now you personally might like the XBOX One version of the Windows OS (remember what a great hit the XBOX One was - oh right it was a dismal failure) but most of us and that means over 66% of Windows users (and well over 50% of all Windows Users use Win7) are of the opinion that Micro$haft has gone bonkers and we are not supporting their lunacy (or greed, or snoopiness, or their intrusion).

As far as we are concerned Win10 can go and get stuffed and so can any product which predicates Win10 as an OS for it to be useable. The majority of us are responding with not only a one finger salute but we are also keeping our money in our wallets.

I know better and you seem to know better and unless more of us tell Microsoft where to get off then the insanity will continue.

I mean of course the insanity on the part of Micro$haft AND AMD. With regard to Wintel I think it is a forlorn cause.

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nec_v20
Challenger

Re: If You Are Interested in Zen Did You Know It Will Not Run On Anything Other Than Windows 10?

Kaby Lake and Zen/Ryzen can take a flying one at a rolling doughnut until it runs on the system I WANT!

It is Windows 10 or my money - one or the other.

nec_v20
Challenger

Re: If You Are Interested in Zen Did You Know It Will Not Run On Anything Other Than Windows 10?

Sorry to burst your bubble but I have proven J*yzTwoCents to be a little corporate wh*re when it suits his purposes.

Nobody says that Kaby Lake or Zen won't work on WIn7 because the driver models are not all that far apart.

It seems that the only thing the spellchecker here seems to object to is the guy you were referring to.

The thing is that it doesn't mean that the hardware will be 100% compatible

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nec_v20
Challenger

Re: If You Are Interested in Zen Did You Know It Will Not Run On Anything Other Than Windows 10?

No we effing well do not need to "move on".

Micro$haft tried this stunt with the XBOX One and they got their arse handed to them.

Are PC users really more stupid than console peasants?

ajlueke
Grandmaster

Re: If You Are Interested in Zen Did You Know It Will Not Run On Anything Other Than Windows 10?

"I have seen the comparison between DX11 and DX12 and in performance and DX12 comes out a piss-poor second." 

Actually that really depends on what hardware you have.  Yes, Nvidia does lose performance in a lot of games under direct DX12 or remains at parity.  AMD on the other hand gains performance in virtually every single DX12 implementation.

Total War: Warhammer DX12 boost for AMD still can't match Nvidia's DX11 performance | PC Gamer

Since this is an AMD forum, I imagine DX12 is a good thing for most of us

("remember what a great hit the XBOX One was - oh right it was a dismal failure)"

A failure?  While granted the Xbox One console install base is only half of the PS4, it is however outpacing the Xbox 360 sales in the same time frame after release.  So while the Xbox One isn't doing nearly as well as the PS4, it is the fastest selling console Microsoft has ever made.

PlayStation 4, Xbox One Outpacing PlayStation 2, Xbox 360 Install Bases - News - www.GameInformer.co... 

"I know better and you seem to know better and unless more of us tell Microsoft where to get off then the insanity will continue."  While you do seem to feel strongly about this, I will agree that forced upgrades isn't a great way to go.  Neither are forced updates that make the system restart while you are working on something.  You may be right that more users shouting "Linux" or "Mac" may be required to make Microsoft address those concerns.