General Discussions

[kingfish]

MD unveiled its new Radeon RX 5700 line of graphics cards with 7nm chips at E3 last month, and with just days to go before they launch on July 7th, the company has announced new pricing. In the "spirit" of competition that it says is "heating up" in the graphics market -- specifically NVIDIA's "Super" new RTX cards -- all three versions of the graphics card will be cheaper than we thought.

The standard Radeon RX 5700 with 36 compute units and speeds of up to 1.7GHz was originally announced at $379, but will instead hit shelves at $349 -- the same price as NVIDIA's RTX 2060. The 5700 XT card that brings 40 compute units and up to 1.9GHz speed will be $50 cheaper than expected, launching at $399. The same goes for the 50th Anniversary with a slightly higher boost speed and stylish gold trim that will cost $449 instead of $499.

That's enough to keep them both cheaper than the $499 RTX 2070 Super -- we'll have to wait for the performance reviews to find out if it's enough to make sure they're still relevant.

AMD fires back at 'Super' NVIDIA with Radeon RX 5700 price cuts 

[hardcoregames_]

colesdav wrote:

Well here is an interesting one, someone is claiming to have managed to flash RX5700XT BIOS on to an RX5700: 
Flashing The Radeon RX 5700 With the RX 5700XT VBIOS For More Performance 
I think modding the BIOIS is completely locked down.

Modded cards on eBay with coin mining ROMs are being sold on eBay that do not work properly. Most are unable to figure out how to fix the card and many do not have an X470 or X570 with an extra slot to be able to flash a card with.

So the lock down the BIOS makes sense for the resale market.

[pokester]

To me there is no excuse to just not have a dual bios to begin with to make flashing a new one safe and easy.

[hardcoregames_]

pokester wrote:

To me there is no excuse to just not have a dual bios to begin with to make flashing a new one safe and easy.

not many cards offer that feature

[pokester]

Nope and it would not cost much to change that. They should. It is something I always choose a card for over another if it has dual bios.

[hardcoregames_]

pokester wrote:

Nope and it would not cost much to change that. They should. It is something I always choose a card for over another if it has dual bios.

I recall my HD 6970 had a dual BIOS switch on it which changed it from power hungry to being a power pig

[colesdav]

I thought dual BIOS on higher end AMD GPUs was pretty common practice apart from on RX480/580, Radeon VII and RX5700/XT.
RX Vega 64 Liquid, Limited Edition (the Silver one) and black reference version have two BIOS switch settings.
Switch furthest forward towards outputs = Performance mode. Switch furthest back away from outputs = lower power mode. 
Same with PowerColor Red Dragon Vega 56.
R9 Fury X, Fury and Nanos all have dual bios switches.
XFX R9 390X Double Dissipation Black edition has a Dual BIOS switch.
Sapphire R9 280x, HD7970 OC 6GB ... both have dual bios switches, the former selects between non UEFI and UEFI based BIOS.
The latter has standard and high perfomance BIOS.

[pokester]

most of my Saphire and XFX products have had dual bios. 

[hardcoregames_]

My old GTX 660 Ti does not, nor does my GTX 750 or even my GTX 1060

Income right now is a tad slow as not much work for my skill set so I am forced to stick with the box I have now

[pokester]

luckily a 1060 is still a good 1080p card. 

[colesdav]

Here are Sapphire RX5700XT Nitro + reviews: 
Sapphire RX 5700 XT Nitro+ Review: In-Depth Thermals, Noise, Overclocking, & Power - YouTube 
Sapphire RX 5700 XT Nitro+, Another Top Notch 5700 XT - YouTube 
Sapphire RX 5700 XT Nitro+ Review - An Excellent Card! - YouTube 

[pokester]

I like that card. Don't need one but a year from now with a  refresh of these adding in Ray Tracing support and assuming driver stability I could definitely see myself picking that Saphire card up. This looks like a great card though for those looking to buy. They seem to be getting the software issues fixed now too.

[colesdav]

RE: I like that card. Don't need one but a year from now with a  refresh of these adding in Ray Tracing support.

Running Ray Tracing on the AMD Cards will push up power consumption.
For example.
Running Ray Tracing on BFV at 4K Ultra on RX Vega 64 Liquid pushes GPU power consumption up from ~ 320 Watts to 400 Watts.
The GPU watercooler on Vega 64 cannot handle that for very long.
Navi is more power efficient than Vega, but I still think running Software based Ray Tracing will be a problem on Navi, unless additional hardware changes/improvements are made.

I haven't tried running Ray Tracing on an RX5700XT yet, as I refuse to spend ~ 450-550 on an RX5700XT, and I have not had a chance to test the card.
People need to realise that the RX5700XT is just the RX480 three years on. Same die size. It was going to be called the RX680... Price is >= 2x higher.

Assuming driver stability...  I still think it will be ~ Jan/Feb 2020 before all of these AIB GPUs are working properly with the "Adrenalin 2020" release.

RE: I could definitely see myself picking that Sapphire card up. This looks like a great card though for those looking to buy.

It does look like Sapphire have done a good job on that Nitro+ RX5700XT GPU, however it is not the fastest one in benchmarks.
It is too large for me though: 

Form Factor

2.5 slot, ATX

Dimension: 306x 135 x 49 (mm)

Once a GPU goes over ~ 40mm high it means blocked PCIe ports and I lose the option to add another 2 slot GPU on the motherboard.
The GPU is also heavy like its predecessor the Sapphire Nitro+ Vega 64.

There are still some Sapphire Nitro+ Vega 64 for sale at reduced pricing or with software bundle or both, but it looks like retailers have sold most of them now.
I am thinking of purchasing an MSI Vega 64 Air Boost for OpenCL Compute as they are selling for as low as 250.
I will not be going near RX5700XT until prices drop to a reasonable level and I do not see that happening until RX580/590 inventory is all sold off.
An HBM2 overclocked RX Vega 64 Liquid is ~ same gaming performance as RX5700XT anyhow.

[pokester]

True power and heat is a big consideration. It's why I didn't even contemplate vega. I wasn't going to buy the more expensive card, plus have to get a new power supply to end up with a reactor under my desk. It did look like the Power Color card was a minute bit faster. I call those small changes in the margin of error. It could be just as much the driver difference or a game update since the last one that changes that stuff. If I was in the market for one of these I do think Saphire does and historically has made the best cards for AMD.  Time will tell on ray tracing. I sure won't be looking to buy anything day one. It also depends on what the other camps have by then. I am happy to see they are making positive progress, of course this is more the AIB partners success not AMD's in this regard. I think the release cards are a fiasco.

[colesdav]

Sure thing about the power consumption. I have to laugh when I see people saying that power consumption on a GPU is not that important, and that they do not heat your room up. I can tell you that running an RX Vega 64 pushing 320-340 Watts in BFV (no Ray Tracing used) or up to 400 Watts in Far Cry 5 definintely does heat a personal office sized room up. I was running Blender Rendering on 2 machines with 5 AMD GPUs per machine all last last week. It was like living in hell. 

[pokester]

No doubt. My RX 580 was no where near as hot as Vega but it got hot. It was like a space heater under the desk. I don't even notice a heat difference with the RTX 2060 when gaming, even for hours. It stays so cool.

[black_zion]

It is amazing how efficient the RTX series cards are for the power they pack, even an aftermarket 2080 Ti will only average about 300w under gaming load, only about 70w more than an aftermarket 5700XT, despite the 2080 Ti being up to twice as fast. Can't wait for Intel to bring their cards out, maybe then we will have a price war...

[pokester]

I am really hoping for the price war. Realistically cards today are easily 1.5x the price as a couple generations ago at the same tier. Honestly I get the higher price at launch as some will pay it. If they however would lower that price people like me would buy more cards. They have just priced the guys like me that would buy an upper mid level to lower end high level card out of the market.

[black_zion]

There is some logic behind insane launch prices, namely disguising the fact that there is a shortage of GPUs and the software isn't ready for them. Given the lack of a single WHQL driver release for the 5000 series as of yet, and what appeared to be a very low supply of cards in the first few weeks of launch, I think this is much the case, along with AMD just wanting as much money as they can get.

[colesdav]

Do you have the FPS performace difference on those two cards for Metro Last Light?
It will be interesting to see Nvidia Turing die shrunk from 12nm to 7nm process ...

[hardcoregames_]

how is the power usage at 4K?

[colesdav]

Finally PowerColor Red Dragon RX5700XT Review: 
PowerColor Red Dragon RX 5700 XT Review | vs RTX 2070 Super, GTX 1070 - YouTube 

[pokester]

Nice review job this person did. One thing I noticed that troubled me was yes the high end was good on the 5700xt, but I found huge disparity in many of the lows and can't help but think this would have to cause big stuttering and likely tearing falling bellow many peoples FS range. Has to be driver issues as nothing else can explain to me why it drops so low.

[colesdav]

Yes - I think there may be some more work to be done on the Adrenalin Drivers / PowerColor Red Dragon RX5700XT BIOS.
I like the PowerColor RX5700XT GPU. It is still too expensive though. I will wait for prices to reduce.
One thing they dropped was the Red LED "Red Dragon" Logo.
It is a minor point, but it is a pity since I think it looks good on the Power Color Red Dragon Vega 56, and can't cost that much to implement.

[black_zion]

Have to blame AMD for that, with such a high starting price compared to the competition, they have to axe certain features to pinch pennies.

[colesdav]

Maybe it is cost reduction. I run PowerColor Red Dragon Vega 56 & other AMD cards for blender & compute. Cards sit outside the PC's or on a mining rig. Having a red led logo as a "power on" indicator or even better a "GPU Tach" is useful just to see the card is running. I cannot rely on looking at fans spinning since some cards have Zero RPM mode. I am not asking for full RGB, just some form of power on indicator. I guess if I buy one I could add an LED somewhere.    

[pokester]

likely it is just pennies too. The power is already on the card. A couple led lights are dirt cheap. 

[black_zion]

Well like some of the tech sites are saying, it's quite likely that there will be multiple versions of the 5700/XT to fit multiple price slots, each having different aesthetics, clocks, and build quality the same way manufacturers have had multiple versions of nVidia models for ages. Still, when you look at the prices, they're too close to the 2070 Super.

[pokester]

True and the closer you get to the 2070 the less it makes sense. Even the non reference 2060 supers are trading blows well with the Navi lineup now. A few of them are even selling at the 400 mark the same as the reference cards. Definitely at that price point one to consider if you have a weaker power supply and or a lower refresh monitor. You just don't need more power. My regular 2060 (although it OC's to 2050) runs every game I have at over 60 fps. I know there are a handfull of games that it would not be able to do that out now but certainly not the norm. I came real close to getting a 2070 super over the weekend as they had an open box for 440 but I really don't need it.

[hardcoregames_]

in canada my bookmark shows slim pickens for RX 5700 and RX 5700 XT cards so I am hoping AMD can improve on the supply of logic so that board makers can add more stock for customers to buy

the most affordable models are chronically MIA

[pokester]

I read just yesterday that there will soon be issues with 7nm as the demand has been too high and that apple is using it on their new phone too.

[hardcoregames_]

i summarized that by looking at wafers coming out of TSMC etc

all i know is that my box will have to make so for god knows how long

gaming at 4K with a GTX 1060 is very eye opening

[pokester]

The article I read said that depending on how the contracts are written that this gen of ryzen and navi may end up without too big of a shortage but that it could keep the next gen from happening as planned. So I guess we will see. I guess being efficient on a lager wafer isn't so bad if it is easier to get them made?

[hardcoregames_]

I have also looked down my pointed nose at the supply of processors in addition to graphics and in both cases there are issues when I look ta NewEgg. EVGA cards are also inm very smim supply.

So given the demand exceeds supply leads to prices higher than equilibrium which in economics is very clear cause of action for investigation

I am also aware nVidia has contracted Samsung for hardware suggesting TSMC cannot handle the workload so this reinforces the position that TSMC maybe responsible for the shortgages

of course this is simply an educated guess as to what is wrong with no hardware for sale.

Old motherboards are still available but my X570 is now an expensive paperweight due to a backwards compatibility problem.

[pokester]

I have been considering getting a Ryzen 5 3600 but will likely go with a b450 MSI board if I do. I see no reason for the expense of a 570 and have zero need for pcie 4.0. Seems to me that it just isn't ready for prime time yet. I am just scared that even with that board I will have issues with drivers. So many complain here of pairing AMD gpu's with AMD motherboards seems to be the worst combination. I saw yesterday that the i5 9600k is now as cheap as that Ryzen 5 so competition is bringing down the price. I do think that the Ryzen chip is the better longevity choice though as it has the extra hyper threaded cores.

[hardcoregames_]

I will say this I were well aware of hardware in the extreme and the PCI SIG manuals are very clear. I l also have the JEDEC manuals and many more.

There is no reason why my CPU (R5 2400G) should not work on the X570 outside of an nonsense whitelist. There is no logical reason for the whitelist.

I bought an X470 rather than a CPU and I have posted many articles on my site over the nonsense.

[pokester]

So I got myself wanting that new board and cpu so I picked it up on the way home. Got the 3600 and the b450 tomahawk MSI board. Put 16 gb or GSkill 3000 DDR4 on it and an Cooler Master Hyper 212 Evo. Figured it was better to buy the 3600 and spend the 35 extra bucks on a better cooler than to get the 3600X. It is running at 4ghz nice and stable at all default settings other than the core clock.It is idling at 33 degrees and never saw it go over 56 under full load so pretty nice!  I am sure I could push the CPU harder but why?  Had the case, evga 750 power supply, SSD and Hard Drives and an RX 580 that have been just sitting around for 6 months waiting on a new build. So for just under 350 bucks I have another pretty solid 1080p gamer. Next year I will likely get a new GPU from AMD or the green team, you never can tell. And move the RTX 2060 to this rig. It should be a good 1080p gamer for years to come I would think. No hicups in any way getting all the current drivers for it all loaded. I am downloading some games and will put it through the paces over the next week I am sure. 

[hardcoregames_]

I am waiting on some more part for the rig. got a replacement for the front panel as the usb 3 cable broke off.

i immediately zip-tied the new part to make it easier to install

also got some more sata cables, i may get more for another rig as the clip cables are more secure

i also zip-tie sata cables so that they do not get tangled and this makes it easier to swap hard disks

waiting on more fans so i can improve on air management, also a replacement firewire card

once all the parts are in hand the fun of cleaning up the box can begin

[colesdav]

I have a very similar build (Libertas ), same processor choice for same reason and same motherboard. I keep the supplied cooler for now on the CPU, but I have a spare Wraith RGB from the 2700X that I could fit. It was a much easier and cheaper build than the 2700X and ROG Crosshair Hero VII WIFI build (Maximus). Memory compatibility seems to be better but I need to swap the Corsair Vengeance Pro RGB kit into the B450 build to prove that for sure. I simply do not have the time for any more testing at the moment. I run another Palit  RTX2080OC in it. Since I have two 2080's now I was tempted to try SLI but the NVLink is another 70-100 just to try it out, and SLI support on new titles is pretty much gone.

I do not really need any more GPUs for a while, apart from a GPU test rig build (Medusa) . I don't think there is anything new worth it from Performance/Price from AMD or Nvidia at the moment. PowerColor Red Dragon RX5700XT prices have dropped to as low as 370 but I think that is still about 100 too high. RX590 prices are now down to about 180, but I do not want to purchase one. PowerColor Vega 56 Red Dragon sit at ~ 270. The Vega 56 seems good until you realise HBM2 is limited to 980MHz versus Vega 64 Liquid running at up to 1150MHz, most performance comes from increasing HBM2 memory speed. Vega 64 reference cards are available for as low as 270 now, and a few AIB cards remain. If you look for a new GPU now, wait for Black Friday or look for good second hand cards at low cost.

[hardcoregames_]

vega 64 cards are way down to the point where its more to my tastes

one of them probably would perk up games a bit

[colesdav]

If you want a Vega 64 GPU I would go for a second hand RX Vega 64 Liquid if you can get one, and think it has not been used for mining. 
Reasonable price is ~  270-340. No warranty once second hand though.

The Adrenalin 19.9.2 drivers are almost there on my XFX RX Vega 64 Liquid, apart from Auto Overclocking which is still a mess. It can just about do BFV Ultra at 4K at 52-60 FPS with a bit of fine tuning and strategic use of Radeon Chill. It will burn about 340 Watts GPU power running BFV at those settings. If you experiment with Ray Tracing then you are looking at 400Watts for the GPU alone, so make sure you have a beefy PSU. I run it with a Corsair AX1600i PSU.
Just remember the liquid cooler hoses exit the side of the GPU and are very long, you may not have room to fit the radiator in your case. You may have to remove side panel of your PC or do a cut out. If you do get one be careful not to scratch the silver case as it is very easily damaged.  You can DX11 Crossfire it with a PowerColor RX Vega 56 Red Dragon.

Other than that try to pick up a Sapphire Nitro+ Vega 64 new at a discount or if you really want a 2 slot high GPU, to try a new reference card - an MSI Vega 64 air boost OC looks like a good price and you can get water blocks or AIO coolers for them. 

Second hand AIB choices are Sapphire RX Vega 64 Nitro+ Limited Edition with a Vapor Chamber and 3 8pin inputs would be a good one to find if you can. PowerColor Red Devil Vega 64 are also good. You might want to be careful in case they have been mined to death though. 
I avoid the Gigabyte RX Vega 64 and 56 AIB cards. Cooler is no better than reference.
Asus ROG Strix Vega 64 have problems with VRM thermal pads that may need a manual fix, they look nice but I don't wnat to have to rip them apart to fix them. 

There are still plenty of choices for Vega 56 - the PowerColor RX Vega 56 Red Dragon is a great 2 slot high Vega 56 GPU. Reference Vega 56 are ok and are selling as low as 210 for MSI Air Boost Vega 56 OC. 

RX Vega 64's at these 270 price points start to make sense to me, provided you can put up with the power consumption.
RX Vega 56 for 210-270 is not a bad choice either.