General Discussions

[kingfish]

MD unveiled its new Radeon RX 5700 line of graphics cards with 7nm chips at E3 last month, and with just days to go before they launch on July 7th, the company has announced new pricing. In the "spirit" of competition that it says is "heating up" in the graphics market -- specifically NVIDIA's "Super" new RTX cards -- all three versions of the graphics card will be cheaper than we thought.

The standard Radeon RX 5700 with 36 compute units and speeds of up to 1.7GHz was originally announced at $379, but will instead hit shelves at $349 -- the same price as NVIDIA's RTX 2060. The 5700 XT card that brings 40 compute units and up to 1.9GHz speed will be $50 cheaper than expected, launching at $399. The same goes for the 50th Anniversary with a slightly higher boost speed and stylish gold trim that will cost $449 instead of $499.

That's enough to keep them both cheaper than the $499 RTX 2070 Super -- we'll have to wait for the performance reviews to find out if it's enough to make sure they're still relevant.

AMD fires back at 'Super' NVIDIA with Radeon RX 5700 price cuts 

[black_zion]

Gigabyte's custom edition has been listed on Amazon as well for $420.

[pokester]

I have bought 3 power color cards and returned them all before the return Window closed. I likely will never buy from them again. I am curious about the specs though. When I buy AMD cards I trust Sapphire and XFX. Both have been very good for me but XFX has a better support department than Sapphire but they do make really good cards XFX is great the way they have stood behind their cards for me. They have sent me cable, adapters and fans all for free in the past. Good company in my book. I am hoping when XFX brings out their version they will have a version with good cooling but closer to reference price plus an OC. They have delivered cards like that a lot over the years. Only question is if the OC really amounts to much more performance from any of the AIB partners. I don't think I am a buyer on any of these cards if they can't run at default settings. I won't put up with that again from any card. 

That Gigabyte card looks nice but boy its sure looks like a long card. Nice to see it not sticking way over the riser like many of the others though. Both ways can bring case fit problems. 

[qwixt]

Judging by the patch notes with all the 5700 crash fixes and known issues, the 5700 needs a few more months of driver work. Buying now is just asking for headaches.

[black_zion]

Only question is if the OC really amounts to much more performance from any of the AIB partners.

This question goes hand in hand with how many versions of the cards there will be. nVidia AIBs are -notorious- for having quite a number of versions since nVidia dropped the alphabet soup after the model name. The MSI RTX 2070 dual fan has 7 versions, for example, and I have to think that AMD's AIBs, mostly due to the high price of the reference RX 5700/XT as compared to nVidia, will do the same thing, bringing out a version with very little tweaking aside from a much better cooler for a very small price premium, like Gigabyte is doing with that $420 model, and scale up to the highest end the way ASUS is doing with their $500 card.

[black_zion]

This is probably the single greatest area that Bergman needs to focus on shaping up RTG. No AMD drivers don't have the massive security issues nVidia drivers have had the last year alone, but for the longest time, compared to nVidia, AMD has just seemed to take forever to release new drivers, and when they do they only address a very small number of issues centered around the newest generation of GPUs while causing even more issues than they fix. Yes it's likely because of the resource allocation focusing on semi-custom and enterprise markets which is where the money is and stability is paramount, but when someone pays upwards of $500, or even more, for a GPU, consumer hardware or not they want it to run without issues.

[colesdav]

Amazon Lists Gigabyte Radeon RX 5700 XT Gaming OC for $420 

[pokester]

What worries me most about the AMD drivers is all the complaints of games not working with the Navi cards. Whatever they did different in the hardware has broken many games. While I had overall stability issues with my RX 580 I didn't find any games that would not play. Just had to deal with features that did not work and stability issues. When games don't work that is a much bigger issue. 

[black_zion]

Another problem is that someone decided developing Windows 7 drivers for them was a good idea, despite that OS being dead in a couple dozen weeks, which means that aside from the resources lost in making drivers for that OS, they'll likely end with a half functional driver that'll only lead to complaints..

I don't trust XFX anymore after my 7970 failed twice, and I'm always wary of Sapphire since my 290X RMA fiasco which involved very slow responses, and being sent a bad replacement card which necessitated a second RMA and an incident interaction between me, the buyer of that card, PayPal, and eBay, plus both xfxsupport‌ and vaporx‌, the official XFX and Sapphire representatives on these forums, have abandoned it. The downside is that those are really AMD's only "good" AIBs these days.

[pokester]

It is unfortunate but true good customer service seems to be dead just about everywhere you look. I had problems with Sapphire honoring their warranty on a card but do think they make good cards. I have good luck with XFX and probably if buying an AMD card would go with them first. They at least have their support located here in the USA so I think that does help. I would imagine that many have had good or bad luck with just about in partner. It doesn't surprise me if they abandon these forums. Since starting here in these forums even the AMD mods are here way less than they used to be. I have a XFX 7950 that still works just fine. I think they ran a good bit cooler that it's bigger brother. Heat will kill any card. I did have to replace my thermal paste on mine as it ran hot when I got it. I usually do that with most any card eventually. None of the card makers seem to use the best stuff. Not sure why as it would make the cards cooler and last longer and likely only cost pennies more using better paste or pads. 

[hardcoregames_]

RTX super cards seem to be in very short supply

[colesdav]

RE: Not sure why as it would make the cards cooler and last longer and likely only cost pennies more using better paste or pads.
Probably built in obsolescence, cost saving to maximise profit and making cards that will last for 2-3 year warranty period.
If your GPU lasts longer than the warranty period it means you do not need to buy a new one.

[black_zion]

Well comparing the quality of pads and paste you can't really do. The kinds of pads that have to be used in GPUs are millimeter thick, spongy, silicone based things with a conductivity of anywhere between 5 and 20w/mk which deteriorate relatively quickly whereas the paste is micrometer thick and (hopefully) non silicone based with a conductivity upwards of 70w/mk. Yes paste deteriorates, but the small temperature increase there is offset by the much larger increase you get with a dried out thermal pad, especially over VRMs.

[colesdav]

Here is a review of the Sapphire Nitro Pulse RX5700XT. 
Summary. 
Same Speed as Reference. 
Cooler GPU and Memory.
Quieter. 
Large Heatsink.
Sapphire Version of this RX5700XT Hardware gets a recommendation.   

Sapphire RX 5700 XT Pulse Review: Thermals, Noise, & Overclocking - YouTube 
Go to 17:27/27:05 if the above link doesn't take you there.

Reviewer is strongly complaining about  AMD Drivers though: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQJCm7bnOfU&feature=youtu.be&t=1196
Go to 19:56/27:05 if the above li....

[black_zion]

Well, the review sites vary quite a bit in terms of power, from 3-30w difference between the reference edition, but the ungodly massive cooler and the high price point, the latter mandated by AMD's high reference edition...The downside it that it makes the vanilla 2070 a better value...

[pokester]

Especially if you want the games. The AMD 3 months promotion for game pass is nothing I would want.

[black_zion]

Agreed, I don't usually factor in games as part of a value added price since I'm the kind of person who waits a year or so for them to fix everything before I do, but a permanent game compared to a temporary service is just better.

[pokester]

Yes and in the past most freebie games were old. These 2 are brand new and likely many wont have them. So potentially that makes it a bigger than usual part of the equation IMHO.

[qwixt]

That's pretty bad from my point of view, or style. Laughably bad. But if you are the type of gamer that focuses on one game then moves on after finishing it or finishes games quickly, you might get more value.

[colesdav]

I forgot to mention, the Sapphire GPU has Dual VBIOS, which I consider an essential feature for any new AMD GPU I purchase.
That feature is missing on Radeon VII and RX5700XT Reference cards.
Default BIOS Switch Position = forward towards the outputs.
Pushing the switch away from GPU outputs puts the GPU in a quiet fan mode.

Here are the Specs: https://www.sapphiretech.com/en/consumer/pulse-radeon-rx-5700-xt-8g-gddr6#Specification 
It is a 2.3 slot high GPU unfortunately.
Here are the product dimensions:

Form Factor

2.3 slot, ATX
Dimension: 254 x 135 x 46.5 (mm)Comparing that to a PowerColor RX Vega 56: AXRX VEGA 56 8GBHBM2-2D2HD/OC - PowerColor 
Dimension: 305 x 140mm x 41.8 (mm).

2 Slot = 40 mm.

The additional 1.8 mm on the PowerColor Red Dragon is the PCB to backplate height. 

So it looks like Sapphire could have easily made that GPU with a 2 slot high (40 mm) cooler.
Why they did not is beyond me.

Seems like blocking motherboard PCIe slots by having a > 2 Slot high GPU is the fashion for AMD AIB GPUs.

[black_zion]

Considering that they made cards for years with cooler for cards with a higher TDP that fit into 2 slots, they could have easily made one to fit into two slots for the 5700XT, but then again it may have increased the cost and reduced their competitiveness with nVidia even more.

[pokester]

Good point, to go smaller usually means more copper. They can go bigger with more aluminum for less money for sure. Some of the older coolers even had fins with copper. You almost never see that anymore except on high dollar water coolers. 

[hardcoregames_]

I have finally ordered up an X570 motherboard so at least that problem is dealt with. MSI X570-A Pro.

Now the fun with video cards can begin fresh.

[colesdav]

Is this the motherboard?
X570-A PRO | Motherboard | MSI Global 
Is the PCIe Slot spacing > 2 slots?

As for fun with video cards - I am sticking with RX Vega 64 Liquid and Nvidia RTX2080's for now.
There is nothing particularly new from either AMD or Nvidia right now that I cannot already run.

If you or anyone else is interested in AMD FidelityFX, DLSS, ReShade to run Contrast Aware/Adaptive Filtering (Radeon Image Sharpening) etc I just completed a bunch of test videos on Formula 1 2019.

That game is interesting because it has AMD FidelityFX, DLSS built in. 

Playlist is here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns0WTzxJDE0&list=PLIv5H5uEfbRQ0d-IgnIk5xhTlj5MUb2_k

Thanks.

[black_zion]

Which is true. As TechPowerup pointed out, this card doesn't use "exotic" cooling such as the vapor chambers that have been fairly standard fare for high end GPUs for some time, just a "cheap" heatpipe style cooler, same you'll find in what is now the cheapest aftermarket coolers, hence the large size, but that cheapness does bring the added price down to a minimum. The reviews show it does perform quite well thermally compared to the reference edition, and the axial fans are better acoustically, but even on an ATX board taking up more than two slots does limit your market. With the standard x16/x1/x16 arrangement most motherboards have, and given the number of people who now occupy that second x16 slot with an NVMe drive via adapter card since it can run unrestricted on the x16 electrical that some boards provide and Windows 10 plays nicely with PCIe attached NVMe storage as bootables, that really does cause headaches. Thankfully ASUS, and some other high end boards are like this, was smart enough to build accommodations for a 2.x slot cooler plus an air gap greater than a millimeter, but in an mATX setup or traditional setup, a 2.x-3 slot cooler may effectively eliminate your other expansion slots.

[pokester]

I have seen though that more and more motherboards even the micro boards either don't have the second slot of have two smaller slots between them now instead of just one or just extra space. My RTX 2060 is actually on of the one fan models so the card is really short but it literally eats 3 slots. I didn't mind as I don't use 2 graphics cards and my MB has 2 m.2 slots on it. I am currently only using 1. But more importantly when I retire this card to my second rig it has a smaller case and the shorter card is a must for that one so it will help. The extra width is nice if you are going shorter. The new Navi cards though are long, thick and with server models taller going about a half inch above the the riser on some I have seen. So just one of the bigger cards I have ever seen. It does seem needlessly so. It has to be a cost thing as already said. 

[colesdav]

The Asrock GPU does seem to be 2 slots high: 
ASRock > Radeon RX 5700 XT Challenger D 8G OC 
I have not seen any reviews or mention of that GPU actually on sale anywhere yet.he 

It might be like the XFX Vega 64 Double Edition or the RX Vega 64 Nano and be a practically fake GPU with a very short product life cycle.
 
At the moment that Asrock AIB GPU is the only one I would purchase because I really do stick to 2 slot high limit.
There is no way I am purchasing an RX5700XT reference card with a blower, unless the price dropped drastically, and even then the additional cost/work to add an AIO or waterblock is too much. 
 
Shorter PCIe slots at higher bandwidth or hopefully Thunderbolt 3 (or similar tech)  -> eGPU/GPU risers may become more available.
Even so, making the GPU as small and power efficient as possible is still important as fitting as many as possible into the PC Case is important.

I have PCs running 6 R9 FuryX / Nanos using 2 in PCIex16 slots, 2 on eGPU Mining Adapters and 2 Thunderbolt 2 interface to 2 Akitio Thunderbolt 2 enclosures like this(Scarface ).

[colesdav]

Gamers Nexus teardown of the Sapphire RX5700XT Pulse showing the heatsink construction is here:

Sapphire RX 5700 XT Pulse Tear-Down: Cooler Quality & Assembly - YouTube 

[black_zion]

DLSS was pulled to be introduced at a later date.

[hardcoregames_]

colesdav wrote:

Is this the motherboard?
X570-A PRO | Motherboard | MSI Global 
Is the PCIe Slot spacing > 2 slots?

As for fun with video cards - I am sticking with RX Vega 64 Liquid and Nvidia RTX2080's for now.
There is nothing particularly new from either AMD or Nvidia rght now that I cannot already run.

If you or anyone else is interested in AMD FidelityFX, DLSS, ReShade to run Contrast Aware/Adaptive Filtering (Radeon Image Sharpening) etc I just completed a bunch of test videos on Formula 1 2019.

That game is interesting because it has AMD FidelityFX, DLSS built in. 

Playlist is here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns0WTzxJDE0&list=PLIv5H5uEfbRQ0d-IgnIk5xhTlj5MUb2_k

Thanks.

That is the motherboard I bought. While not the most expensive version it has all the features I need.

[pokester]

That's a nice board layout. Even if you go 3 slots you only lose one small slot. I have been very happy myself with MSI boards.

[hardcoregames_]

pokester wrote:

That's a nice board layout. Even if you go 3 slots you only lose one small slot. I have been very happy myself with MSI boards.

I have the option of using the x4 slot or the top x1 slot s three slot video cards are not a big problem

With PCIe 3.0 slots, new generation Wi-fi cards will not bve bandwidth starved at all

the x4 slot is not needed at present but a controller card will like extra lanes

I found a USB 2.0 internal hub with the 9-pin headers so I can connect misc USB devices such as my PSU and my front panel card reader etc. Disappointed that USB 2 was reduced as there are a lot of components in a rig that can use it.

[pokester]

I agree on the less usb ports. While USB 3 is supposed to be full backwards compatible I have run into numerous USB 2 devices that don't work correctly when plugged into USB 3.

[colesdav]

Yes I know. The DLSS benchmark I ran was mostly o.k. but there is some stange artifacting at the top left at the start of the DLSS benchmark.

[colesdav]

What do you think of this one?
MSI Radeon RX 5700 XT Evoke OC Review: Custom Navi FTW! - YouTube 

Similar story to the Sapphire Pulse.
50mm (2.5 PCIe slot)
~ Same performance as Reference.
Quieter

Cooler although they seem to report lower temp improvement than the Sapphire GPU.

[black_zion]

Personally I'm not a fan, and I'll tell you why because it's something people, and review sites, are forgetting: Mid range cards are double the price of the previous generation for the same card in the hierarchy. The 5700 and 5700XT effectively replace the RX 580 and 590 since we know current Navi cards are mid and upper mid range cards, and high end Navi based cards referred to as nVidia killers (how often has AMD said that?) replacing Vega are due out next year, and lower end chips derived from current Navi GPUs will be released to replace the RX 570, 560, and 550. Yes the 5700/XT is more powerful than the 580/90, but games are getting more complex computationally so the 5700XT/2070 Super is now pretty much the minimum required to guarantee 1920x1080 60fps minimums.

And that's decidedly NOT a good thing when you're talking about an entire next generation gaming console costing half as much as a modern 1920x1080 60fps machine. Yes detail levels may be effectively lower with a console, but if you have to cut detail levels on a PC just to hit frame rate targets, that's really no better.

[pokester]

Looks like it has better stable cooling. But if you heard him say they have a cheaper model with same cooling just 50 mhz slower that one is likely the better buy and likely based on what we see with overclocking won't change FPS by more that  a couple FPS. I don't like the height on the card being over the riser. I'm not sure why so many of these do that. While yes it is cooler, copper heat pipes probably would have brought temps down another 5 degrees. The challenge though honestly is for AMD to get the drivers working. When they do that these will be good buys, assuming it is soon and not until the next gen is out. 

[pokester]

I agree with your pricing comment. They are acting like the mining boom is still on. At these prices I have not need to replace my card. For 150 less I would be very tempted. 

[pokester]

I can honestly say I play a lot of current games. I can play everything I have at 1440 at 60 fps or better most at 75 fps or better. Even Anthem now that they have it optimized. That is on RTX 2060 original. So you really don't need the power of more unless you are a high refresh gamer. There are plenty of those out there but I would  bet that 60-75 mhz monitors are still way more common. 

[colesdav]

I agree. See my previous posts. These are Polaris GPU replacement priced at almost 2x the cost they should be. I am trying to ignore the prices and just look at the GPUs. I am trying to stay positive about the Navi cards and launch. The prices will drop eventually.

On that note, here are PowerColor Red Devil specs and reviews - its a Dual 8 pin, with

Board Dimensions

300mm*132mm*53mm

Specs here: https://www.powercolor.com/product?id=1565770208 

Here are two reviews:

The Red Devil RX 5700 XT Spanks The RTX 2060 Super - YouTube 

And also here https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.php/artikel/hardware/grafikkarten/50528-powercolor-red-devil-radeo... :

[black_zion]

But there are plenty of examples at 2560x1440 where even years old games cannot hit 60fps minimums, or even 60fps averages, on the 5700XT and/or RTX 2070 Super without compromising detail levels, and that's not what you want after spending north of $400 on a GPU. Granted some of the detail settings you can reduce with only minimal, if any, noticeable levels of quality difference, remember the "god rays" on Stalker Clear Sky years ago for example, and granted these really are the mid and upper mid range cards, but again, $400-$550, way too much.