General Discussions

[kingfish]

MD unveiled its new Radeon RX 5700 line of graphics cards with 7nm chips at E3 last month, and with just days to go before they launch on July 7th, the company has announced new pricing. In the "spirit" of competition that it says is "heating up" in the graphics market -- specifically NVIDIA's "Super" new RTX cards -- all three versions of the graphics card will be cheaper than we thought.

The standard Radeon RX 5700 with 36 compute units and speeds of up to 1.7GHz was originally announced at $379, but will instead hit shelves at $349 -- the same price as NVIDIA's RTX 2060. The 5700 XT card that brings 40 compute units and up to 1.9GHz speed will be $50 cheaper than expected, launching at $399. The same goes for the 50th Anniversary with a slightly higher boost speed and stylish gold trim that will cost $449 instead of $499.

That's enough to keep them both cheaper than the $499 RTX 2070 Super -- we'll have to wait for the performance reviews to find out if it's enough to make sure they're still relevant.

AMD fires back at 'Super' NVIDIA with Radeon RX 5700 price cuts 

[black_zion]

Interesting, Newegg already has Sapphire's RX 5700 on a $20 off sale...

[hardcoregames_]

I was looking at the RX 5700 XT which has a new more shaders

[pokester]

Interesting, I am hoping the green team slashes prices a bit more to. I would like to see this level of card be a hundred buck cheaper like it was a couple generations back. They have gotten too expensive for those of us without deep pockets to justify.

I liked the video colesdav shared yesterday with the Water Block cooling and his conclusion that the new AIB partner cards with different cooling should really help. I think if if they prove to be stable and some come out at that 399 price point or the 20 bucks cheaper and AMD fixes these driver issues by then I can really see myself getting one and moving my RTX 2060 to my 1080p gaming rig. We will see what happens.

[hardcoregames_]

The melted look to the RX 5700 XT has a certain feel of being pushed hard gaming so with a bit of dust it will make any machine selfie more interesting

[colesdav]

Here is a video showing you how to install Contrast Aware/Adaptive filtering (Radeon Image Filtering) with ReShade  it and get it running on your GPU and game . I used FarCry 5 in this example. It works on AMD Vega 64/56/R9 FuryX/Fury/Nano for sure, Also on Nvidia RTX2080. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxL6Uv4O6gA 

The video is still processing so you might have to wait a while for 1080p/2K/4K versions

[black_zion]

I think nVidia is waiting to see the performance of aftermarket cards, and what AMD does with pricing of aftermarket cards, and there's a lot of variables in there, especially with AMD still claiming they baited nVidia into pricing their cards higher. We know that Navi, especially Navi XT, has a bit of performance headroom while staying within the power limits of PCIe, but the godawful reference cooler is totally inadequate, so it's possible that some custom cards will come clocked like we see below with the liquid cooled and voltmodded reference Navi XT, and have about 10% higher performance over reference.

Then there's the question of what AMD does with reference edition pricing once custom cooled cards land. If they keep the reference editions at $350 and $400, and custom cards are priced at $25-$50 more (or I'd say up to $100 more if they make a liquid cooled 5700XT), then nVidia has little reason to cut prices since they can say "We have ray tracing, DLSS, and a more efficient card". If, however, AMD cuts the price of the reference edition by $50 so that custom cards land at $350 and $400, then nVidia is going to be forced to cut the prices of their cards by about $100 to compete, since a $530 RTX 2070 Super priced against a custom RX 5700 XT at $400 with the performance seen below isn't going to shift many units.

Personally I'm inclined to believe AMD will keep reference cards at their current points and aftermarkets will be close to $400 and $450 since AMD's initial pricing shows they do not want to be aggressive and capture market share. RTX Super cards will drop some in price as more are in stock, people are snapping RTX 2070 Super cards up so quickly there's only a single model in stock at Newegg at the moment, but don't expect a price war where the consumers win, only price matching where the manufacturers win...

[hardcoregames_]

It will be more interesting when Ampere surfaces to take on Navi 2

[colesdav]

Gamers Nexus conclusion: AMD RX 5700 XT Hybrid Mod, PowerPlay Overclock, & More Power - YouTube 

[black_zion]

Will be interesting to see if any AMD partner does a custom liquid cooled version the way EVGA did to the RTX 2070 Super, and how pricing will be affected...

https://www.evga.com/products/product.aspx?pn=08G-P4-3178-KR

[pokester]

I wold have to bet that if they did it would be expensive. Not only because of the add water cooling but the would have to also likely have to do some very selective binning of the GPU chips. From the couple of experiments I have seen videos of people adding better water or air cooling, the headroom for improvement for overclocking is not much and even at the high end translates into not a lot of extra FPS.

So likely what you are going to get is just a much more stable product with a small amount of improvement in performance. That in and of itself is a still a great thing as long as it doesn't cost much more. 

It sure looks like AMD already pushed the limits of thin initial architecture pretty hard to be competitive then unfortunately didn't give a good enough cooling solution to keep it stable paired with drivers that don't seem to help that situation. There are bunch of videos and reviews and other forums I have seen now and all pretty much have that same conclusion. 

So I would not expect some super version of current Navi but then Navi could be pretty super as it is, with drives that work and proper cooling. 

[black_zion]

I'm not necessarily expecting a "super Navi" either, the last thing AMD needs is another RX 590-like scenario where a much higher power draw yields very little performance gains, but as you know two of the biggest advantages of liquid cooling are acoustical, both in terms of pitch and level, and performance with high ambient temperatures.

[colesdav]

I am doing a new PC Build for gaming at the moment.
It is a "Budget build" compared to
I normally select the top end CPU but I have selected a Ryzen 5 3600 CPU this time.
I selected an MSI  B450 TOMAHAWK motherboard.
I am not using a new X570 series, the cost is much higher than X470 series.
I can't justify the added cost.

I considered the reference RX5700XT.  They were 400, now discounted to 380, 390 including delivery(down from 410).
Includes 3 month XBox Game Pass for PC.
I could buy the RX5700XT. Anniversary Edition for ~  440 direct from AMD. Not sure if it includes the Xbox Game Pass for PC code, but that's worth ~ 15.

I have that XBox Game Pass for PC anyhow. The games are locked down from modding / ReShade. 

Based on what I have seen on reviews, there is no way I am buying any of those RX5700XT with that reference blower.

That means adding an AIO, tearing down the GPU, possibly losing RMA/Warranty in practice plus additional cost to do it.
They need something like this: Alphacool Eiswolf 240 GPX Pro AMD Radeon VII M02 - Black | -- NEUE PRODUKTE -- | Shop | Alphacool - ... 
I do not know if that one is compatible with RX5700XT.
So that's another ~ 200 including delivery costs.
Adding custom watercooling and GPU waterblock would cost more.

That makes an RX5700 XT Anniversary Edition + AIO cooler = 640, to get performance maybe on par with an RTX 2070 Super with no Ray Tracing support.
No AIB options to consider.

MSI Gaming RX2070 OC available for 440 including delivery + permanent copy of Wolfenstein Young Blood + Control, both RTX titles. 
I looked at the Nvidia RTX2070 Super again.
Cheapest 2 slot dual fan RTX2070 Super is 485 including delivery + permanent copy of Wolfenstein Young Blood + Control, both RTX titles.

I ended up purchasing another Palit RTX 2080 OC for 620 including delivery + permanent copy of Wolfenstein Young Blood + Control.

I already own that GPU, and I am very happy with it.
The Drivers have been solid as in no crashes yet. It is my main GPU on Maximus
It gives me the option to play with SLI later on if I decide to remove the secondary RX Vega 64 Liquid from Maximus into this new build.  

As you can see the GPU prices are all high but in reality those RX5700XT reference cards are priced so high to start off, and they need watercooling in my opinion.
I am already in 640 spend territory anyhow.

I will keep a lookout for AIB RX5700XT. It is looking like end August / Early September before they are launched. Then likely another wait period for properly working drivers and BIOS. The price will have to drop, and a better game deal is needed. I will likey wait for Black Friday again so that's Friday 29th November 2019.

Looks like I am skipping the RX5700XT until then.

[colesdav]

Correction - one of these: https://www.alphacool.com/shop/neue-produkte/24996/alphacool-eiswolf-240-gpx-pro-amd-radeon-vii-m02-...
Correction added to the above thread.

[black_zion]

I'm unsure about changing CPUs considering what I paid for my 1800X ($500), on top of the problems it caused me (bad unit, caused invalidated Windows 10 license and led to an additional $200 fee), and why it is the very last time I will ever be an early adopter. On the other side, it's a sad state of affairs when you look forward to Intel entering the consumer graphics market to start a price war, but right now the RTX 2070 (non super) still looks to be the best option, with overall performance comparable to the 5700XT, especially when OCd, and it's $55 cheaper than the 2070 Super while not really sacrificing any real world performance since there's no performance tier the 2070 Super hits that the 2070 doesn't, both are capable 2560x1440 60hz cards, and the Super doesn't hit 75fps if the non Super doesn't. May be $30 more than Navi XT, but it's better than that reference cooled monstrosity that should never exist.

[ajlueke]

Or you can spend $270 on a Vega 56.

Best bang for the buck out there right now.

[black_zion]

Not with that monstrosity AMD calls a cooler. 45-51dB of noise is far too unacceptable

[colesdav]

Here are some pictures of new RX5700 series GPUs:
AMD Radeon RX 5700 Custom Designs Pictured at ChinaJoy 2019 

[colesdav]

You would be much better off with one of the PowerColor Red Dragon Vega 56 than a reference Vega 56. 
The cost difference is not that much. 
But even then do not expect it to beat an RTX2070, an RX Vega 64 Liquid can't even do that.
Those RTX20XX GPUs did not improve on DX 11 performance much, but they are much better in DX12 and Vulkan. 

[hardcoregames_]

colesdav wrote:

You would be much better off with one of the PowerColor Red Dragon Vega 56 than a reference Vega 56. 
The cost difference is not that much. 
But even then do not expect it to beat an RTX2070, an RX Vega 64 Liquid can't even do that.
Those RTX20XX GPUs did not improve on DX 11 performance much, but they are much better in DX12 and Vulkan. 

The red dragon cards are popular as they run cool and can take a lot of gaming and do not overheat

[colesdav]

Yes, I own one. I bought it a few weeks ago. It's o.k. for the price I paid and the game deal I got with it. I use it for Blender/Compute, not gaming. Thanks.

[hardcoregames_]

powercolor red dragon and the sapphire nitro are the best coolers for radeon that I have used

[colesdav]

I agree. The PowerColor Red Dragon Vega 64 and the Sapphire Nitro Vega 64 are the best Vega AIB cards.
The Asus Strix Vega 64 has/had a VRM cooling issue and the Gigabyte Vega 64 had a cooler that performed no better than reference.

Those RX Vega 64 Nitros are now discounted heavily if you are after another Vega 64 at the moment, perhaps to run in Crossfire or as a Compute GPU.
I think the PowerColor Red Dragon Vega 64's were sold out / discontined about 6 months ago.

[hardcoregames_]

I think Vega cards and the Radeon VIII are all EOL so unless somebody has one left you are stuck to use ebay to find one.

The new FRX 5700 cards are now what AMD wants to sell pending new models expected soon

[colesdav]

I have been keeping a look out for new RX5700/XT AIB cards.

Asus have some information on thier RX5700/XT cards.
It looks like ASUS are really maxing out the coolers on these GPUs.
They are ... 2.7 slots high, leaving the remaining 0.3 slot for airflow presumably.

Having such large coolers / heavy GPU is not my personal preference. I prefer 2 slot GPUs in PowerColor Red Dragon Vega 56 / Palit RTX2080 OC style.
I dont mind having longer, wider cards. More than 2 slots blocks other Motherboard PCIe slots and makes it difficult to fit Multiple GPUs.

Navi shines bright with ROG Strix, TUF Gaming, and ASUS Dual Radeon RX 5700-series graphics cards | ... 

I hope they get the VRM thermal pad cooling correct this time.
Also it looks like the Backplate on the Strix model has gone for similar style to Vega 64 Strix, with LED Logo on the backplate. 
This means it is unlikely the backplate will perform any additional cooling function, but have to wait to see teardowns to confirm.

[black_zion]

That's why I figured they would go with a hybrid liquid system, especially since the $50-$75 price premium is already close to the premium that liquid commands anyway.

[colesdav]

Maybe  Sapphire will produce an AIO Liquid Cooled version or start to make cards with factory fitted with waterblocks
I see nothing on the Sapphire Site about Nitro versions of the RX5700XT yet. 

[black_zion]

I doubt Sapphire will go that route, but looking at Newegg, nVidia is apparently having issues supplying RTX 2070 Super GPUs to meet demand as only two models are in stock, both Gigabyte, so AMD may have a chance at snagging some market share just because of an nVidia shortage, though that also means the cards will continue to be horridly expensive. And it seems that nVidia's third critical security issue with their drivers in the last year is not hurting their sales either.

[pokester]

I've been watching several sites. The new RTX  Super cards seem to be selling like crazy.

[black_zion]

Oddly the RTX 2070 non Super either doesn't seem to be selling that well despite being much less expensive and performing generally as well, or the inventory is so large it's taking a long time to clean out.

[pokester]

Well the thing that turns me off of the 2070 and 80 non-super is if you have been following some other sites that they have had a pretty high failure rate. The supers are supposed to address this issue. My guess is they are not discounting them enough to make them a better buy than the newer counterparts.

I have noticed that many of the ones that they still have are the ones that seem to have some more frequent than random failure rates. Just my take, I have nothing beyond a guess on this.

[black_zion]

Wouldn't be surprised if the RX 5700 series reference editions had a fairly high failure rate, both AMD and nVidia are fabbing on new nodes, plus they want the highest number of cards in stock at launch as possible so I wouldn't doubt QC is laxer.

[colesdav]

Sapphire Pulse RX5700XT is now on  preorder:
Sapphire Radeon RX 5700 XT Pulse Pictured, Listed | TechPowerUp 

Some prices are out.
. 
The reference RX5700XT is on sale for as low as 375. Plenty in stock. 
The Sapphire Pulse RX5700XT was on briefly pre-order for ~450.

The Asus Strix RX5700XT was initially priced at ~530.
All have Xbox game pass for PC 3 months worth 15.

A 2 slot high  Palit RTX2080 dual fan is 600 + 2 free games (Wolfenstein + Control).   
I think all of those prices are too high, especially the ASUS card in comparison. 

[black_zion]

Agreed, and about as we feared that AMD is willing to basically pricematch nVidia instead of being aggressive. Say the custom editions equal RTX 2070 in terms of performance on average (though Techspot's overall average is thrown off by Forza), nVidia is the better value...didn't think that statement would ever apply...

[ajlueke]

I agree.  The reference 5700 and 5700XT are right on the $/performance curve with NVidia, with the caveat that they are somewhat loud and hot.  If correcting the temp/noise doesn't add much performance and pushes the AIB editions off that $/performance curve, not a lot of people will go for that either.

[pokester]

So far it is looking like the new partner coolers with the same reference specs are going to run at about a 30 dollar premium based on Sapphires news. So my guess is than OC addition beyond that likely would be another 20 bucks if not more than that. So yes that starts to affect the value proposition. Some of the early testing was also showing that even with a 15 percent increase in speed on Navi that translated into only 1 or 2 more frames. On the other hand most of the Supers are overclocking extremely well and the fps boost is far more.  So a lot to factor into making the best decision.

[colesdav]

This is 450... versus 380 for the Reference RX5700XT. 

[colesdav]

And the Asus Strix is ~500.

O

[pokester]

Any specs on either of those yet? 

[colesdav]

Best to wait for official specifications from PowerColor and ASUS rather than quoting anything here yet.
Also best to wait for independent reviews before even considering a purchase of either of them based on what happened with the PowerColor Red Devil Vega 64 and the Asus ROG Strix Vega 64 last time around.

The PowerColor Red Devil Vega 64 had HBM2 thermal paste (fixed quite quickly though) and AIB BIOS versus Wattman issues at launch.
The Asus ROG Strix Vega 64 had/has VRM Cooling Pad problem and AIB BIOS versus Wattman issues which meant it performed no better than an RX Vega 64 reference card at launch.
The AIB BIOS versus Wattman issues took months to get fixed.

So before anyone spends any money on either of them, wait for reviews.
I prefer the look of the PowerColor Red Devil RX5700XT. I think it looks pretty good.
Pity there is no PowerColor Red Dragon RX5700XT with a 2 slot high Vega 56 Red Dragon style cooler - that should be cheaper and that cooler is great.

[black_zion]

Also better to wait until we see an nVidia response, if any, since I doubt they will allow the RTX 2070 Super to be $100 more expensive given equal performance on average, and then to see if AMD has a counter response. This is Bergman's chance to show why he's one of the best.